Yeah, saw things related to that earlier today.
I don’t like Vance–at all. But I’m just trying to call things as I see them here.
Also, JD is currently part of Congress that can get shit done. What has JD done when he is the one that actually has that power?
Yes! Vance is scary because he almost sounded normal, but he is a true believer in the shit like Project 2025 while Trump is a true believer in “how do I get richer and stay out of jail”. Also, Vance probably has more than two brain cells to rub together.
Vance is who people were afraid DeSantis might be.
Haha, yep.
I hope I didn’t hurt anybody by editing my post. I reread it and definitely mistyped. Also Vance is evil and would not be a good President. He has no moral core. While I disagree with all his views I would prefer Pence. It reminds me of the quote from Hamilton “Jefferson has beliefs; Burr has none”, Vance will say or do whatever it takes to get power.
Nice call out by Walz on 1/6. “That is a damning non-answer” and “That is why Mike Pence isn’t on this stage “.
Also I feel for the moderators who couldn’t help fact checking. They should have just let them do their jobs.
MHO: Vance was more polished, but Walz was more sincere.
I wouldn’t say that Vance “almost sounded normal,” but rather, Vance “sounded normal.” Maybe not the normality that we Dopers who followed along and commented live in and/or would like to see, but a normality nonetheless. We know Trump and his word salad and his confusion in speeches well enough (big thanks to @Smapti for his work in taking one for the team and reporting them), and we laugh at him.
But here comes Vance. He’s not confused, he’s not going back to so-called cheating in 2020, he couldn’t care less about crowd sizes. He’s got a sensible, logical head on his shoulders, and he’s capable of concentrating on issues, and that’s what makes him scary. And dangerous.
This point needs to be added to the “Trump’s in an unrecoverable tailspin and there’s no way he can win at this point” thread to push back on the delusional optimism there (I finally checked out of that thread after seeing valid points like this being dismissed and handwaved away over and over again).
There’ll be a non-zero number of fence-sitters watching tonight from PA or NC who thought “ya know, I could vote for Trump for one more term and let him hand the keys to Vance in 2028. Still far better than eight potential years of that Commie Harris if I don’t vote”.
I don’t agree with your characterization of the thread. Hey, you see me here recognizing that Vance has some skills, right?!
So no big fireworks good or bad from the debate? That’s something.
IMHO, no clear winner, no clear loser. Vance was logical, Walz was emotional, but each made their points, and made them well.
I just wish Walz had made a football reference. That was my last square on my Bingo card.
It’s like neither wanted to play to win. Each was playing to not lose. And they both did that.
This one might. After weeks, hell, months, of unmitigated Trump/Vance nonsense leavened with utter insanity, Vance finally looked decent. This might give some people the excuse they need to forget what Trump looked and sounded like in the last debate.
I agree with the general trend of the comments here – Walz was a bit flustered at times but always spoke from the heart; Vance was well prepared and polished and spent the evening deflecting and lying his ass off.
Walz held his own and overall, the debate was an uneventful draw. I just wish Walz had come after Vance much more aggressively on the major vulnerability of the 2020 election lies. Vance was allowed to deflect the question about Trump’s election lies, and according to the revisionist history told by Vance last night, Trump only wanted “peaceful” protests, and didn’t try to illegally retain power since he voluntarily left on Jan 20.
What a load of crap! Has everyone already forgotten Trump’s incitement to his followers to “fight like hell” and “if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore”? Does Vance inhabit an alternate reality where no one knows that his orange boss has been criminally indicted for election interference? Does no one know that Trump left the White House on Jan 20 only because, after all his subversion efforts had failed, if he had not left he would have been physically removed? And that he left in the angry huff of a red-faced foot-stomping toddler, for the first time ever (AFAIK) an outgoing president failing to extend the courtesy of welcoming the incoming one to the White House, and then spent the next three and a half years promulgating his election lies?
And unsurprisingly Trump moaned about the debate on TS. I don’t look at it, but no don’t it’s the usual malarky.
Not the first time an outgoing prez did not attend the inauguration. John Adams, defeated by Jefferson in the election of 1800, left the White House at 4 am and took the public stage coach to Baltimore, en route to Massachusetts.
I was referring to the fact that on Jan 20, having lost all his attempts to subvert the election, Trump had no choice but to leave, and went off like a pouting toddler, failing to honour the (at least) century-old tradition of welcoming the new president-elect and giving him words of advice. That may not have been an established tradition in the days of Adams and Jefferson, but for at least the past 100 years even the outgoing and incoming First Ladies meet for tea and the opportunity to show the incoming one around the private residence, and presidents for perhaps even longer. Trump didn’t do this, and neither did his trophy wife.
Anyway, this ties in to Vance implying that Trump left voluntarily on Jan 20. The only truth is that he wasn’t literally dragged out by the Secret Service kicking and screaming. But figuratively, for all intents and purposes, that was the reality. America survived one insurrection. It may not survive another. Vance has proven that he’s dangerous because he’s not a moron like his boss, but is an equally facile liar.
So I’ve caught up on the thread, and I watched the first 45 minutes or so of the debate. I had to leave the house at that point and could not see the rest. Based on what I saw, and the general trend of comments here, it went about how I expected. Meaning essentially a draw. I’m not unhappy about that.
I will say Walz came off decently. Not super polished, but consistent and passionate about the things he believes in. I believe this was really all he had to do. Vance on the other hand, I will say I was mildly impressed with how slick he came across. I mean only from a presentation standpoint. He’s still an evil liar and every other word that came out of his mouth was still BS. Someone up thread used the term snake oil. I concur with that assessment. It’s well packaged, much better than trump. And I will also concur with those who have observed that this does potentially make him much more dangerous than trump.
Still, Walz seem to perform admirably, and it sounds like he did land a couple of solid shots near the end. My boy did good. Loved the line about Pence!
Random thought: I’m sure there’s already posts out there about this from trump. But I’m very curious, I wonder how he’s going to react to everyone saying that Vance did far better than he did at the debate with Harris? His ego is not going to handle that well I don’t think.
It’s worse than that; the Trump administration refused to do any the formal transition in the months leading up to Jan 20th. e.g. Letting the new administration attend briefings, handing over vital information and releasing funds. It’s yet another way that Trump’s feelings were put above the country’s well-being, and we all forget because…there’s just been so much.
Very good point, and something that Walz should have also brought up in response to Vance’s whitewashing of Trump’s pouting and election denial and how it put the nation in jeopardy.