Was Bush's bland Xian eulogy for Ford okay with you?

Great Debates
1

Over yonder we were discussing Bush’s eulogy for Ford, which made nominal mentions of their common Xianity.

I maintained that even at a funeral, such gratuitous comments coming from an elected offical speaking in his official capacity is inappropriate. I would like to argue that the Ford family (with our mournful permission) was having it both ways. AFAIC, they can dance naked around the coffin and chant Satanic invocations, as long as it’s a private ceremony, but they wanted the spectacle and prestige of a big public ceremony, and POTUS speaking and all that, which to me means they surrender some of the issues that speak to their own private and religious concerns.

To me, it’s a simple issue of the separation of Church and State, which I think this entire culture (and this smaller culture on the SD) willfully misunderstands. If you pander to a large enough and bland enough majority, you’ll get a pass on the most blatant violation of the clear line between Church and State. You see it in “In God We Trust” and that no-brainer 10 Commandments crap in Alabama which should have taken about 15 seconds to remove from the public courthouse, so I’m not protesting its existence. I’m saying that it’s all around us, but I think few people care or notice or object to talk of Xianity in a Xian president’s funeral service.

My problem is this: he wasn’t elected President of the Xians. He was elected President of all of us. Like all of us, he’s free to believe whatever he likes. But he’s not free to proclaim his religious views at any public ceremony while acting as POTUS. Put a sock in it, George.

Am I alone in finding even such bland homilies as Bush vomited forth dutifully objectionable?

2

Sometimes I just wonder if people actively search for something to whine about.

Who cares? It’s a funeral. When Gandhi died, should there have been no mentions of his religion by other world leaders? How about Golda Meier? Hell, here’s the closing remarks by Bill Clinton at Rabin’s funeral back in 1995:

WTF is Clinton doing bringing up religion at a funeral?

:rolleyes:

3

Uh, me. I understand that you don’t care at all. That’s kinda my point.

4

A funeral is a religious ceremony. Even when held for and by atheists, they often retain some of the ceremonial trappings.

Ford was a Christian.

His funeral was religious.

I have no problem with that. I have no problem with the POTUS talking about religion at a religious function. The president is not required to stuff his faith into a drawer while he holds office. He is required to not impose his faith on the nation with his presidential powers, but nothing further.

5

Text of speech…

[quote]
THE PRESIDENT: Mrs. Ford, the Ford family; distinguished guests, including our Presidents and First Ladies; and our fellow citizens:

We are here today to say goodbye to a great man. Gerald Ford was born and reared in the American heartland. He belonged to a generation that measured men by their honesty and their courage. He grew to manhood under the roof of a loving mother and father – and when times were tough, he took part-time jobs to help them out. In President Ford, the world saw the best of America – and America found a man whose character and leadership would bring calm and healing to one of the most divisive moments in our nation’s history.

Long before he was known in Washington, Gerald Ford showed his character and his leadership. As a star football player for the University of Michigan, he came face to face with racial prejudice when Georgia Tech came to Ann Arbor for a football game. One of Michigan’s best players was an African American student named Willis Ward. Georgia Tech said they would not take the field if a black man were allowed to play. Gerald Ford was furious at Georgia Tech for making the demand, and for the University of Michigan for caving in. He agreed to play only after Willis Ward personally asked him to. The stand Gerald Ford took that day was never forgotten by his friend. And Gerald Ford never forgot that day either – and three decades later, he proudly supported the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act in the United States Congress.

Gerald Ford showed his character in the devotion to his family. On the day he became President, he told the nation, “I am indebted to no man, and only to one woman – to my dear wife.” By then Betty Ford had a pretty good idea of what marriage to Gerald Ford involved. After all, their wedding had taken place less than three weeks before his first election to the United States Congress, and his idea of a “honeymoon” was driving to Ann Arbor with his bride so they could attend a brunch before the Michigan-Northwestern game the next day. (Laughter.) And that was the beginning of a great marriage. The Fords would have four fine children. And Steve, Jack, Mike, and Susan know that, as proud as their Dad was of being President, Gerald Ford was even prouder of the other titles he held: father, and grandfather, and great-grandfather.

Gerald Ford showed his character in the uniform of our country. When Pearl Harbor was attacked in December 1941, Gerald Ford was an attorney fresh out of Yale Law School, but when his nation called he did not hesitate. In early 1942 he volunteered for the Navy and, after receiving his commission, worked hard to get assigned to a ship headed into combat. Eventually his wish was granted, and Lieutenant Ford was assigned to the aircraft carrier, USS Monterey, which saw action in some of the biggest battles of the Pacific.

Gerald Ford showed his character in public office. As a young congressman, he earned a reputation for an ability to get along with others without compromising his principles. He was greatly admired by his colleagues and they trusted him a lot. And so when President Nixon needed to replace a vice president who had resigned in scandal, he naturally turned to a man whose name was a synonym for integrity: Gerald R. Ford. And eight months later, when he was elevated to the presidency, it was because America needed him, not because he needed the office.

President Ford assumed office at a terrible time in our nation’s history. At home, America was divided by political turmoil and wracked by inflation. In Southeast Asia, Saigon fell just nine months into his presidency. Amid all the turmoil, Gerald Ford was a rock of stability. And when he put his hand on his family Bible to take the presidential oath of office, he brought grace to a moment of great doubt.

In a short time, the gentleman from Grand Rapids proved that behind the affability was firm resolve. When a U.S. ship called the Mayaguez was seized by Cambodia, President Ford made the tough decision to send in the Marines – and all the crew members were rescued. He was criticized for signing the Helsinki Accords, yet history has shown that document helped bring down the Soviet Union, as courageous men and women behind the Iron Curtain used it to demand their God-given liberties. Twice assassins attempted to take the life of this good and decent man, yet he refused to curtail his public appearances. And when he thought that the nation needed to put Watergate behind us, he made the tough and decent decision to pardon President Nixon, even though that decision probably cost him the presidential election.

Gerald Ford assumed the presidency when the nation needed a leader of character and humility – and we found it in the man from Grand Rapids. President Ford’s time in office was brief, but history will long remember the courage and common sense that helped restore trust in the workings of our democracy.

Laura and I had the honor of hosting the Ford family for Gerald Ford’s 90th birthday. It’s one of the highlights of our time in the White House. I will always cherish the memory of the last time I saw him, this past year in California. He was still smiling, still counting himself lucky to have Betty at his side, and still displaying the optimism and generosity that made him one of America’s most beloved leaders.

And so, on behalf of a grateful nation, we bid farewell to our 38th President. We thank the Almighty for Gerald Ford’s life, and we ask for God’s blessings on Gerald Ford and his family.

END 11:27 A.M. EST

[quote]

Two mentions of the word “God”, no mentions of “Jesus” or “Christ”. What is so offensively religious about the above? :confused:

6

And my point is that a funeral is a religious event. Why complain when people bring up religion at a religious event?

Do you damn Clinton’s above remarks with the same attitude that you’re damning Bush’s?

7

I picked it because of its blandness (see thread title). I’m saying that, even if you sneak in a little tiny mention of religion, it’s subtle but still wrong. It denigrates the views of those members of a grateful nation who revere Ford but feel strongly that he is NOT being blessed by an almighty God and are offended that the deity is being invoked in a public ceremony.

And by “those members” I mean all three of them.

8

I disagree; I think there are circumstances in which he is free to proclaim his religious views as POTUS.

I cannot get behind the perspective that separation of Church and State means that elected officials cannot express their religious views, or bring their religious perspective to legislation. To me it is exclusively about legislation promoting or benefiting one religion over another (or over none at all).

9

A public funeral is not a religious event. If they want a religious event, they can hold a private ceremony. They want it both ways.

And of course Clinton’s remarks are much worse than Bush’s. Why do you ask? Is this a partisan thing?

10

Oh, and, if Ford were an athiest or non-deist, then I might think it was poor form on Bush’s part (though still not disobeying Church/State), but if Ford wanted a ceremony with Christian overtones, then it would be denegrating to him to not follow those wishes.

11

I’m a pretty big foe of religion in government, but I can’t find anything to get worked up about in those remarks given their context. Heck, I think Bush mentions God more in a State of the Union address. And every single speech I’ve had the misfortune of seeing/hearing has concluded with some version of “God bless us, every one.”
I think complaining about a situation like this, lessens the effectiveness of more legitimate complaints about more invasive transgressions. But, I’m also a big fan of freedom of speech, so bitch away.

12

In the above, there are four mentions of the fact that the speech was “Xian”, two mentions of the separation of Church and State, 2 mentions of the word “religion”, and your conclusion was:

But not a single mention about the “blandness” of the speech. Are you stating that you want to recast your argument?

Regardless of what you really meant by an OP that focused solely on the religious issue and not a bit on how bland it was, methinks you doth protest too much.

And you still haven’t answered the question: Was Bill Clinton, acting as President of the US, just as wrong to bring religion up at Rabin’s funeral as Bush was to Fords? (Note that the passage quote is far more religious than the entirety of Bush’s speech.)

13

(You posted this while I was writing the above about “haven’t answered the question”…)

Frankly, I’m just trying to gauge your consistancy, determining whether this was a partisan issue with you.

For myself, I don’t have a problem with either of the speeches.

14

I pretty much agree with you. It’s not like Im worked up about this partcular invocation of the deity, and yes “God” appears in almost every political speech made in this country. I’m just trying to show how used to it we’ve gotten to be, and how its appearance by popular acquiesence pervades our mentality, priveleging the views of theists above atheists in the culture.

I’ll bet that a President who simply omitted “God” from all his public speeches would be in very hot water.

15

I’m not bothered by the eulogy either. Ford was a Christian and Bush is a Christian, and this is a personal event as well as a state one. If Bush started going on and on about Jesus at Ariel Sharon’s funeral, that might seem inappropriate.

I do disagree that our liberties are “God-given,” but I think he’s just stating his view and not making a point. If I thought he was trying to score some cheap political points, it would bother me.

16

I disagree with the OP. I’m assuming the funeral is not in some way an official government function. If my assumption is correct, then there is no legal or ethical problem with the Prez speaking as a christian at the event. He’s not there to represent me, so I don’t care what he does.

That is oversimplifying things, because I’m aware many people will regard him as representing the people of the USA at all times, not just at “official” times. But I am saying that people are wrong to think this.

If people do think this, and if this belief is incorrigible, then it might be a good idea for a Prez to behave as though it were true. But I do not believe it is actually true, and I don’t think people should think its true.

-FrL-

17

I’m not sure if Bush’s religion is even relevant here. In my mind, only the religion of the deceased is. If the deceased was an atheist, it would be in very poor form, IMO, for Bush to have made the remarks he did about God. I believe that a eulogist’s job is to talk about the person who has died, the values that were important to that person, and how that person tried to live up to those values. If those values were entirely secular, then that’s what the eulogy should cover. If the values were religious in nature, then it is equally appropriate to bring those up as the secular ones. If the deceased would be comforted by speakers invoking blessings of a god, then that is appropriate as well, and the god or religion mentioned should be relevant to the descease’s personal religion, not the religion of the eulogizer.

18

Mark me down in the “I don’t care” column.

19

Bingo. Good job capturing the essence of the issue in the first sentence of the first post.

It was a Christian funeral for a Christian man at which some other Christians, including Bush, spoke. BFD. When the OP has his funeral, he’s free to request that no references to religion be made during the ceremony.

20

Especially if he said “It is unfortunate that Mr. Sharon failed to accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior, as he will now burn in hell for all eternity.”