I have no idea what you are talking about in the first paragraph. As to the rest-
The flag and flag imagery is fairly ubiquitous and used very casually in our culture. Nevertheless, the use of the flag in a ceremonial playing of the anthem is an entirely different setting and context. There are plenty of people that don’t show enough respect in those settings and it’s extremely irritating, but there’s a world of difference between mere apathy and the very calculated and pointed showing of disrespect.
Do you really think I, or a lot of the others who don’t like CK’s kneeling, would have approved of it if it had been Peyton Manning? I mean, since you know I’m “not telling you the truth” and all, please inform me of how I’d react to that. I’d really enjoy knowing how I feel.
(It’s been a minute but if remember correctly…) In the beginning it was just a personal protest and he didn’t do anything to draw attention to himself or the reason(s) why he didn’t stand for the anthem. Whenever it was time for the anthem he just quietly walked to the bench and sat down. After several weeks of this someone caught him on camera and asked what was up, he explained and conservative white folks caught the vapors. Later on, when he was trying to refine his message he started taking a knee to try an stop folks from claiming he was disrespecting the blah, blah, blah bullshit.
Back in the day Mahmoud Abdul Rauf (formerly Chris Jackson) had a similar protest in the NBA where he would sit on the bench during the anthem. Eventually the NBA changed it’s rules so that he was required to stand.
And for anyone who thinks this is unusual or a unique standpoint for black people to take I would invite you to catch a game at an HBCU and watch how few people ever rise for the anthem. I can testify that back in the 90s it was quite normal for no one in the stadium/arena/gym/whatever to stand or even stop talking when the song starts to play.
I don’t disagree at all with what he was trying to do. Intellectually, I even understand why he chose to do it the way he did. I just don’t like it, and I’m trying to illustrate why. Nothing about this is related to his cause, which I freely admit is an absolutely just one, just the method he used to garner attention. I am far more offended by the snide, casual accusations of bigotry for anyone who feels the same.
If you can’t be dissuaded from your certainty that it was disrespect rather than the precise opposite, then this discussion cannot be resolved. There really are those of us who think honestly recognizing our country’s faults and wanting to fix them is more patriotic than coerced acts of jingoistic ritualism. You don’t have to agree, but it would help you to say so.
A white man would not have had reason to do it, would he? Do you *really *think you know Kaepernick’s reasons? The fact that you’re asking that question indicates that you do not.
Yet you won’t tell us what he could have done that you *would *approve of. Perhaps you just don’t like being shown that we need to do better, that we need more commitment from our citizens than going through the ritual motions and calling that patriotism?
You’re offering only offense, not explanation. That’s an avoidance tactic.
Well you do seem to be comfortable telling everyone else how they are supposed to feel. Don’t you think that everyone has a right to be patriotic in the way that is most meaningful to them? Doesn’t everyone deserve that freedom, or is it appropriate in America to force everyone to express their love of country in only the way that you expect and/or demand?
I have told people how they should feel? I haven’t told anyone they must do, say, or feel anything, except that they shouldn’t be making the unwarranted assumption that anyone who takes offense at Kaepernick’s actions is only doing so because he’s black.
You were pretty descriptive of your feelings about your expectations for proper flag respect and I didn’t see any room for disagreement, or allowance for other forms of patriotism. You certainly have the freedom of your feelings toward the flag, but its not in line with freedom to expect that everyone else must follow that.
I rather do think it’s disrespect. I don’t think he’s unaware of the customs regarding the anthem. Refusing to participate by not standing would be a far less offensive way of showing dissent. Kneeling instead of standing is doing the exact opposite of established norms.
You’re missing my point. My point is that there are people who have convinced themselves that the only reason for anyone to dislike it is because it’s a black man doing it.
Well, I don’t pretend to have the solutions to effective activism, nor do I think I have to have those answers to point at something and say I don’t like it. As for going through the ritual motions, I’m sure a lot of people do just that. When I, an atheist, go to a funeral, wedding, or any other thing where there’s praying going on, I stand, sit, or bow my head when called to. I don’t do it because I have any belief, but because I respect the fact that others around me do. It may be just a meaningless ritual to me, but I don’t need to be an asshole to the people for whom it’s not.
I don’t know what it is you are trying to get at here. What do you think I’m avoiding?
Well it was after talking to a veteran that he started kneeling, because that veteran told him kneeling was more respectful. See your views on the flag and respect are not universal and its frankly the opposite of freedom that you insist that it is.
I’m not the one who has set the expectations for proper flag respect. It’s long established protocol that goes way back further than me. I was taught it in Kindergarten, Cub Scouts, and through many years in the military.
My saying “I feel this way” is not the same thing as adding “…and nobody else can feel another way.” I fully support CK’s right to protest as he did. That’s not the same thing as approving of it. Likewise, disapproval of how he chose to protest is not the same thing as disapproving of what he was protesting.
I never claimed my view as being in any way universal. Nor does my dislike have anything to do with his freedom to do as he pleases, or anyone else’s freedom to completely disagree with me. I have no idea what you are talking about with that last phrase at all.
Agreed. There are a lot of legitimate veteran’s issues, but there are also politicians out there ready to wave the military around like window dressing during an election cycle.
So you are ok with everyone expressing their patriotism in the way that is most meaningful to them? Even when that means protesting the ways that the country is not living up to its ideals? Because that’s not what you’ve been saying as far as I can tell.
Then you haven’t been reading very carefully. I support his or anyone else’s right to protest certainly. That doesn’t mean I have to like the way they choose to do so. For the record, people could burn the flag and I’d support their right to do so while at the same time being pissed at them for doing it. And I couldn’t care less what actual cause was being protested, whether I was for, against, or completely neutral.
My very favorite discussion tactic is impugning the literacy of those that you are arguing with.
Fair enough, you are certainly entitled to think he’s an asshole, and I am entitled to think that those that think there is only one right way to be a patriot are wrong.
It really would help the credibility of that assertion if you’d tell us what means of protest you *would *like. Without that, other motives can be inferred. And do please recognize that a protest that raises emotion is more effective than one that does not - the causes for that emotion then become open to examination, and that can lead to addressing the problem that caused the protest.
It does seem odd that format animates you but content does not.
I’m curious: let’s say a guy comes to you and says, man, that Kaepernick — I want to show disrespect to that guy; if I ever meet him, I’d sure like to find an offensive way to express that disrespect. Anyhow, I think I’ve hit on the perfect solution, and so I want your advice: if I meet Kaepernick, I’ll kneel to him. That’ll show him, huh? Oh, yeah, there I’ll be, just deferentially genuflecting before the guy for a full minute; and can’t you just picture the look on his face?