Kaepernik knelt because he hates the country and the anthem is a symbol of the country. Police brutality is part of the reason he hates this country and was in the news.
I hear he is a good guy and would not do anything just to make people mad.
I would reply that he makes no sense whatsoever.
There’s a long-established protocol for the anthem that says people should stand and face the flag. While simply not standing would be a refusal to participate, actively kneeling is doing exactly the opposite of that. If the custom was “everyone take a knee” and he stood up straight and tall it would be the same sort of gesture.
“Hates this country” != “this country is not currently living up to its ideals”
If you talk to your kid about something they have done wrong does that mean you hate your kid?
A veteran told him that kneeling was more respectful than sitting it out. You keep stating your opinion as if its iron-clad fact. You are not the only one that has views on what is or isn’t respectful. He listened to someone that had a different view and he followed his advice. Why do you keep ignoring this?
I understand why he did what he did, which was to get the maximum rise out of people and achieve notoriety for his cause. There are some here who think what he did was actually a form of respectful protest. I disagree. If he had sat unmoving, that would have been a way of registering protest by refusing to participate. Taking the knee appears to me anyway to be making a statement of opposition. It’s like comparing not waving hello to giving the someone the finger. I’ve seen that someone reportedly advised him that kneeling would be seen as more respectful, but I don’t think that turned out to be the case judging by the media.
I’m discussing the format of his protest apart from the content because the form his protest took is what the thread topic is all about.
Because we are typing at each other instead of talking, it might seem like I am “up in arms” about him, but I’m not. I do value the flag and the anthem as symbols, and I very much dislike it when people denigrate it. But it’s not a “set my hair on fire, boycott the NFL and Nike!” reaction. It’s an “I don’t like that” reaction.
The only thing that truly animates me here is being told that there’s no daylight between disliking his actions and being someone who “makes excuses for police brutality as long as it is directed against scary non-whites” or “hate it when black people stand up for themselves” as the OP puts it.
I am stating my opinion as if it’s my opinion. I’m fully aware that others do not share it. So what? Because that other veteran that told him that this would be better than sitting quietly was voicing his opinion too.
I’m just saying that yours isn’t the only interpretation of respect, and he did take the advice of someone that told him how to do it respectfully. You can consider that or you can ignore it, but if it doesn’t alter at all your view of his intentions then that is unfortunate.
The wonderlic test isn’t a mensa entrance exam. Think about the population of those being examined.
Second point first yourself.
People’s feelings don’t give them ownership. If they’re going to put such value on them, they need to be told, Trumpist-fashion, to “fuck [their] feelings.”
Good advice in this case, because the flag belongs to and stands for every last single fucking American equally. Even to and for unpatriotic souls like me. Their sensitive feewings give them no additional claim.
As far as your first point goes:
No, that’s the protocol for showing allegiance. Do you salute other countries’ flags and anthems? If not, you shouldn’t be confused on this point.
No, the opposite would be to raise a ruckus, curse the flag, spit at it, and try to grab it and throw it down or set it afire.
Taking a knee was about the most minimal way possible to visibly differ from those expressing their allegiance. And allegiance is not a requirement for citizenship in good standing, fwiw.
You do indeed refuse any possibility of being dissuaded from your opinion, as already stated. Then you’re welcome to stew in it.
Better go reread the OP, or even just the thread title, then.
Cite, please. And requiring people to salute the flag is not respect for anything but jingoistic, militaristic nationalism and is fundamentally disrespectful to America and the idea of freedom. Forcing people to salute the flag and recite a pledge to it is something that grew from Cold War hysteria, it’s not some fundamental American value and was in fact one of the favorite pasttimes of fascist countries historically.
You’re here supporting him in his attack on a black man engaging in peaceful, respectful protest, so your ANY is violated by this very post.
If you oppose respectful, peaceful protest of an action then you are in favor of that action. Supporting the violent murder of innocent black people is racist.
Uh… I actually said the military has no exclusive ownership over the flag. You even quoted it. I only illustrated why many in the military would be more likely to take offense. As for the rest. shall I follow your advice and “Trumpist fashion” say “fuck your callous disregard”?
True, there’s a *bunch *of ways to act in opposition to the standard anthem customs, and there’s no allegiance required to be a citizen. CK can protest all he wants, and I am perfectly free to think he’s being a jerk for doing so the way he chooses to do so. It seems plain that he wanted the notoriety, and it was worth it to him to offend people to get it.
Huh? The OP that posits he was taking a knee just to piss people off and not really seriously protesting?
I guess my response is, why would they take offense? Why do they necessarily have to take offense? My dad was a veteran. I still have the flag folded in triangular form that was displayed next to his coffin at his funeral. I like and respect the American flag generally, but it’s also a complex symbol, and I don’t understand why it follows that some in the military can’t seem to understand that. Look, Kaepernick is kneeling for the anthem. He’s not torching or desecrating a flag. There’s clearly some actual effort involved in taking a position that Kaepernick is being disrespectful to the US or to the military. It seems like veterans who criticize Kaepernick are either incapable of basic analytical reasoning or they want to thrust themselves into the controversy because they want to fight someone.
You can think he’s a jerk if you want, but why do you think he’s a jerk when it’s obvious he wasn’t in any way aiming his protests at the military? If you pass by a guy and his girl having on argument on the street and you hear the guy call her a bytch, that doesn’t mean that he’s talking about your wife, sister, mother, or aunt. It’s clearly aimed at someone else. As long as he doesn’t start pimp slapping her, stay out of other people’s fights.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301
Customs, courtesies and protocols != requirements. Nobody is forcing him to do anything. The US Flag Code doesn’t have force of law, and hasn’t in ages.
I NEVER, not ONCE supported Trump’s attack on Kaepernick. I never called for a boycott, never said he should be drummed out of the NFL, never once said he shouldn’t protest what he’s protesting, never said anything other than that I personally find his chosen method of protest to be offensive, and that not liking the method is not the same as not liking the purpose and not the same as against it because he’s black. I don’t oppose his right to protest at all.
And I sure as hell don’t support the “violent murder of innocent black people” just because I don’t like the kneeling. That’s like me accusing you of being a traitor to the US because you don’t condemn it. You seriously think that the only two possibilities are “Supports Kaepernick’s kneeling” and “Advocates race murders”?
Look, my dislike of Kaepernick’s kneeling is fairly mild, comparable to hearing people dropping f-bombs all over Target. The anthem and the flag are symbols that mean something to me, and I will never like seeing them willfully disrespected no matter who is doing so or why. What does chap me is all the people who assume and assert that I, or anyone else who feels the same, must therefore be racist assholes who just love us some killer cops.
The reason I think he’s a jerk has nothing to do with whether he’s aiming his protest at me or the military. You might disagree whether the behavior is jerkish or not, but it doesn’t stop being jerkish if it’s pointing away from you. It’s like me talking through a church service when I know people around me are going to take offense.
The very first post in this thread paints anyone who doesn’t like the kneeling as being nothing more than “Rage over black people standing up for themselves.” I came in and posted that it was completely unfair to draw that conclusion, and that it was offensive. Since then I’ve done nothing but try to explain why I (and others I know but by no means every veteran) might take offense for reasons other than “excuses for police brutality as long as it is directed against scary non-whites.”
You are one of the very few posters here that actually seems to consider what I have posted and respond in a way that isn’t an attack, so I don’t mean that you have done any of this. But so far in this thread I’ve been told that I have no reason or justification for feeling the way I do, (and am lying about it anyway for that matter), am really a Trump supporter, a flagrant racist, and that I support the violent murder of black people. It’s been quite an education, but frankly I am tired of the insults, accusations, and the attempts at point-scoring that has taken the place of discussion.
To me the whole thread comes across as a leading question; kneeling is a respectful stance, and Colin and others have stated repeatedly and clearly what the protests are about.
Why would I try to infer any other meaning?
I don’t see a single post where you explain why you find kneeling offensive, though. In fact you seem to go out of your way to say you don’t find it offensive. In fact, you’ve now changed to saying you “dislike” his actions, rather than find them offensive. You in fact say your dislike is quite mild, and that most other things are more important.
Before that, you would take every reason that most people say they find offensive and say that you do not believe those things. You do not oppose the call against police brutality. You do not think it was disrespectful to the military. You don’t think it is disrespectful to the country. You don’t believe he was doing it just to “trigger” conservatives.
So, by my reading, you are not offended. You do not think his Kaepernick’s action was morally wrong. You are not upset that he performed this action. You do not wish the man ill will.
However, every person I’ve ever encountered who is offended has either cited it as being “disrespectful to the military” or said they disagree with Black Lives Matter. And every last one of them supported some sort of punishment for Kaepernick and any other NFL player who participated in the protest.
I have not found a single person who claims they find it offensive but believes the same things you do. Even you, by my definition, only find it distasteful, not offensive.
You didn’t read that link at all did you?
This chart from that link should dispell you of your confusion: (reminder he got a 38) https://wonderlictestsample.com/wonderlic-test-scoring/
Wonderlic Score by Job Title
Systems Analyst 32
Chemist 31
Electrical Engineer 30
Engineer 29
Programmer 29
Accountant 28
Executive 28
Reporter 28
Teacher 28
Copywriter 27
Investment Analyst 27
Librarian 27
Electronics Technician 26
Salesperson 25
Secretary 24
Dispatcher 23
Drafter 23
Electrician 23
Nurse 23
Bank teller 22
Cashier 21
Firefighter 21
Clerical Worker 21
Machinist 21
Receptionist 21
Train conductor 21
Craftsman 18
Security guard 17
Welder 17
Warehouseman 15
Janitor 14
Thought I’d pull this out as an example of what I meant in my other post, as I’m not sure I made myself clear.
What makes you appear to be up in arms about him is that you keep saying you are offended by his form of protest. Those mean essentially the same thing.
Dislike, even strong dislike, is not what most people mean by “offended.” It implies at least a very strong anger.
Again, I think the better term for what you seem to be describing is “distasteful.” You find the form of the protest distasteful, but support the cause it represents.
Though, I will say, I still find that weird. It’s kneeling, the same action people do when they pray. People kneel to show loyalty. How can it be disrespectful or distasteful? How is it connected to burning something, which often means “I hate this thing and this thing should not exist?”
And, yes, frankly, I do think that, had Peyton Manning kneeled at during the anthem, people would not be offended, as they’d take it as prayer, just like when other people have taken the knee on the field. However, I do not think the race of the person kneeling was the issue. It’s the cause that people don’t support. The hatred for BlackLivesMatter predates Kaepernick.