Was it possible/plausible for a freedom loving American to vote for President Trump in 2020?

[Max_S]

In hindsight, I seem to have misinterpreted the original conversation @JohnT and I had.

Original discussion

@Max_S

Okay John Brown, maybe you are going a little too far by implying that “Republicans generally” are “enemies” of “freedom loving Americans”.

~Max

@JohnT

A credible case could be made that voting for Trump was a vote for a COVID ‘mitigation’ strategy which would kill up to 3 million more countrymen than already passed.

Max, if I vote that you be forced to participate in a contest where you have a 60% chance of being infected, a 20% chance of being severely symptomatic, and a 1% chance of dying… how would you consider me? Friend or foe?

@Max_S

Most (R) turncoats I know did so because of COVID-19.

Strike that. All turncoats I know did so because COVID-19.

Your point is lost on me.

~Max

@JohnT

Max, since the real world analogy was, by your admittance, beyond your understanding, allow me to simplify it:

I cast a vote to kill you, a fellow countryman. Am I a friend or foe?

@Max_S

Ceteris paribus, Foe.

~Max

@JohnT

In our best mold, America is an idea, not a nation founded upon an ethnic identity of peoples who have been here since anyone can remember. And if you refuse to share those ideals… in Democracy, the Rule of Law, of fairness and honesty (both of which are crucial to the smooth functioning of a capitalist system, according to Friedman and Rand)… than you are denouncing your own Americaness.

In fact, it is an oath to these ideals, and to the document(s) which express them, which allows one to become an American.

America is a state of mind, shaped by the ideals of 1776 and the Enlightenment, and if you refuse to share these ideals, you refuse to be an American.

@JohnT

Conservative historian Paul Johnson said the great societal advantage of America in the 18th century was we lacked the burden of a massive peasant class, that to just be in America showed intelligence, an ability to work the system, and a self-confidence above and beyond the norm.

We no longer have this advantage.

Right here is where I make the mistake, I erroniously assume JohnT is arguing about the definition of America/an American [person].

@Max_S

This gives me quite a bit of insight to how you’re thinking. I disagree, of course; to me, America is the country and people and things within, not some ideal or philosophy.

~Max

@JohnT

It was literally founded as such. And our history, and oaths, show this - you don’t swear to the country , you swear to the Constitution and pledge to support America’s laws :

*“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution(1) and laws(2) of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law(3); that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law(4); that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law(5); and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”

You don’t swear to the Country or to the King. You swear to the ideal, the belief, of following the Law.

@Max_S

You’re right, the country and it’s Constitution.

~Max

@JohnT

No, in no place does the oath say you pledge fidelity to the country, it’s clearly written that you pledge fidelity to our Laws and Constitution.

And since the laws are determined by democratic majority as defined by the Constitutions of the various States as well as the Constitution, you are pledging fidelity to the democratic processes which generates these laws.

Whether there is still a debate to have, I do not know.

~Max