We need to call out inherent racism in explicit terms

[andros]

@HoneyBadgerDC

This issue is commonly discussed in drug and alcohol rehab. One thing abusers have in common is a general lack of tolerance for most anything they don’t like. Naturally this general lack of tolerance tends to affect all areas of thier lives excasperating the problem and creating even more less than desirable situations.

I’m sorry, I have no idea what you mean to say here. I’m sure it’s just my lack of caffeine, but…huh?

[jimbuff314]

Since you brought the post up, I’d like to say I really enjoyed the word “excasperating.” Sort of a mash-up of “exasperate” and “exacerbate”, with just a smidgin of Casper the Friendly Ghost thrown in for good measure.

[marshmallow]

Babies prefer to look at faces of their own race. Babies are racist.

I seriously doubt playing the race card more would do much. Every piece of media is racist nowadays. People comb over everything for dog whistles or casts that don’t line up to racial population percentages. When blatant racism is found, there are apologies crafted for 24/7 media consumption and everyone moves on to the next scandal. I know a lot of conservatives who would approve of this strategy though, just for sheer entertainment value.

[Acsenray]

@marshmallow

I seriously doubt playing the race card more would do much.

Here we go. Saying “playing the race card” is something only a racist asshole does. This isn’t a game. This is trying to make headway in a society soaked in racist assumptions.

People who say “playing the race card” are acting like this is a game just to annoy people. No, the point is to disturb you from your seat of comfort and make you question your every thoughts, action, decision, and word to be very sure that you are not doing something that is actively harming other people.

People ask, "Why does it only matter when white people are racist? Can’t black people be racist too?’

Well, yes. Anyone can be racist. But the point is that White racism against blacks actively harms people, interferes with their abilities to fulfill their potential, creates a psychological aura of oppression, and it kills people. Black racism against whites rarely has such broad and deep consequences.

I have bigoted feelings and assumptions myself, but I try to be aware and to fight those impulses. That is what the purpose of disturbing the complacent is about. It’s to get them to self-examine and check themselves.

Only white people have the luxury to pretend that racism no longer exists, or that it doesn’t matter, or that pointing out racism is “playing the race card.” Everyone else has to just live in the shit. This is about showing white people that they can’t stay out of the shit.

And, yes, babies are racist. That doesn’t mean we throw up our hands and call it a day. That means we have to make sure that civilized society makes sure that babies don’t get comfortable with their racism.

[monstro]

@marshmallow

Babies prefer to look at faces of their own race. Babies are racist.

And as this article shows, this tendency can be reversed by exposing babies to different faces.

I seriously doubt playing the race card more would do much. Every piece of media is racist nowadays. People comb over everything for dog whistles or casts that don’t line up to racial population percentages. When blatant racism is found, there are apologies crafted for 24/7 media consumption and everyone moves on to the next scandal. I know a lot of conservatives who would approve of this strategy though, just for sheer entertainment value.

You’re seeing this in terms of “media” and “entertainment”, as if we’re talking about a TV show rather than something impacting the lives of millions of Americans. Everything you just said can be condensed into: “It’s so wonderful being white.” I guess it is.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Acsenray

People who say “playing the race card” are acting like this is a game just to annoy people. No, the point is to disturb you from your seat of comfort and make you question your every thoughts, action, decision, and word to be very sure that you are not doing something that is actively harming other people.

The problem with that is that I like being comfortable and I don’t like being disturbed. One of my main goals in life is to become comfortable and stay comfortable. And I don’t want to have to question my every thought, action, decision, and word. I do that enough as it is, and it’s exhausting. I’m trying to do that less.

[marshmallow]

@monstro

You’re seeing this in terms of “media” and “entertainment”, as if we’re talking about a TV show rather than something impacting the lives of millions of Americans.

There was discussion about racist media. You were talking about boycotting movies that don’t have the correct racial proportions.

Everything you just said can be condensed into: “It’s so wonderful being white.” I guess it is.

Everything I said can be condensed into “calling out racism more runs into diminishing returns.” It’s already called out, constantly. The cops are racist. Hollywood is racist. America is a racist society. That’s a well established narrative. Plenty of people call each other racist online, yet I don’t think I’ve ever seen that go anywhere productive. The OP talks about the collective movement of impersonal institutional forces, how do you call out individuals there?

I’ve watched a lot of police harassment/brutality videos. Sometimes the victims accuse the cops of racism, or slyly asks if they’d be treating them like that if they were white. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen the cops take a step back and re-evaluate their behavior when called out. If anything, it seems to escalate the situation.

I could go around in my personal life and call people racists. Have you found that helpful? I find it usually leads to defensive posturing, handwaving, or your dismissal as an uber sensitive PC lib.

[Great_Antibob]

@Captain_Amazing

The problem with that is that I like being comfortable and I don’t like being disturbed.

Nothing inherently wrong with that.

The problem comes when people want to be lazy/comfortable and not judged for it and still considered “good people”.

Fuck that noise.

People can continue being intellectually lazy and morally questionable, and I can continuing judging them for it. They don’t get to tell me I have to consider them morally upstanding or superior while sitting in comfort and ignoring other people.

[monstro]

@marshmallow

I could go around in my personal life and call people racists. Have you found that helpful? I find it usually leads to defensive posturing, handwaving, or your dismissal as an uber sensitive PC lib.

Do you think I go around in my personal life and call people racists?

You make it sound as if we all recognize that there’s a problem, so there’s no use pointing it out. I wish this were the case.

I’m not going to stop reminding people that we haven’t reached enlightenment yet. Sorry.

[monstro]

@Captain_Amazing

The problem with that is that I like being comfortable and I don’t like being disturbed. One of my main goals in life is to become comfortable and stay comfortable. And I don’t want to have to question my every thought, action, decision, and word. I do that enough as it is, and it’s exhausting. I’m trying to do that less.

All this time I thought you were an American Jew. Not a German circa 1933.

[Frylock]

@Captain_Amazing

The problem with that is that I like being comfortable and I don’t like being disturbed. One of my main goals in life is to become comfortable and stay comfortable. And I don’t want to have to question my every thought, action, decision, and word. I do that enough as it is, and it’s exhausting. I’m trying to do that less.

That’s okay, other people can do the questioning of your thoughts, actions decisions and words for you.

[marshmallow]

@monstro

Do you think I go around in my personal life and call people racists?

I don’t know. The OP says we should personally call out racism in explicit terms when we see it. I said this wouldn’t be particularly helpful and you took issue with that.

IIRC, you’re a black woman. There’s an argument that white people listen to other white people when it comes to social issues more than other races (or women). So maybe as a white dude I’m abdicating my responsibility.

You make it sound as if we all recognize that there’s a problem, so there’s no use pointing it out. I wish this were the case.

You linked to a propaganda smear. But even the racist Republican boogeyman hiding under your bed are well aware of liberal opinions on racism and American society. There’s not a messaging problem where they’re not receiving it. They generally disagree or don’t give a shit, so calling them racists doesn’t accomplish much. You can tell other people how the GOP is racist, and chronicle it. That’s also been done to death. There’s an entire mediasphere dedicated to that. It’s a major pillar of liberal commentary. There’s a BBQ thread with 1.7 million views for that (not racism exclusively, but there’s a lot of it in there). Plenty of threads here about racism in all sorts of places. But we need more, as per the OP. That will break the fever. Okay then.

I’m not going to stop reminding people that we haven’t reached enlightenment yet. Sorry.

That’s cool. I do the same, I’m just cynical on the possibilities of change. It feels pretty pointless to even engage knowing that, but it can be satisfying in a self righteous sort of way.

[monstro]

@marshmallow

You linked to a propaganda smear. But even the racist Republican boogeyman hiding under your bed are well aware of liberal opinions on racism and American society. There’s not a messaging problem where they’re not receiving it. They generally disagree or don’t give a shit, so calling them racists doesn’t accomplish much. You can tell other people how the GOP is racist, and chronicle it. That’s also been done to death. There’s an entire mediasphere dedicated to that. It’s a major pillar of liberal commentary. There’s a BBQ thread with 1.7 million views for that (not racism exclusively, but there’s a lot of it in there). Plenty of threads here about racism in all sorts of places. But we need more, as per the OP. That will break the fever. Okay then.

You seem big on pointing out what’s already obvious (that racists don’t want to admit they are racist), but you’re not providing any solutions. As a black woman, I’m not satisfied with throwing up my hands and concluding this is the best of all possible worlds. I’ve got too much at stake to sell society that short. So I’m all about finding solutions.

Slavery was ended, in large part, because people–both white and both–weren’t afraid to shout and scream about it. Jim Crow was ended because people weren’t afraid to call out the racists hiding behind badges and gavels. History shows us that when racial minorities throw up their hands and silence themselves, things get worse for them, not better. Such silence may make white people happy and comfortable, but white people were also quite happy and comfortable when blacks were enslaved. Why is it unreasonable to shoot for happiness and freedom for everyone?

That’s cool. I do the same, I’m just cynical on the possibilities of change. It feels pretty pointless to even engage knowing that, but it can be satisfying in a self righteous sort of way.

I don’t think it’s pointless. For every stubborn blowhard in the conversation, there’s always someone in earshot who has doubts, who doesn’t really know what to believe. Maybe with a little education, they will be able to appreciate that current events are strikingly similar to what’s occurred in every single generation since the beginning of this country. Maybe the next time they overhear someone say, “Oh, I don’t know what those black people are whining about! There is no racism!” they will remember the articles posted in this thread, and they will understand that they, as a white person, will have more success in changing that person’s mind than I ever would.

I think being cynical is a cop-out, to be honest. There’s a lot of stuff that individuals can do to change the mindsets around us. But if we throw up our hands and abdicate responsibility, then nothing ever changes. Just as we predicted. This is called a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@marshmallow

I don’t know. The OP says we should personally call out racism in explicit terms when we see it. I said this wouldn’t be particularly helpful and you took issue with that.

Well, what IS helpful? And what other problems do you think are best addressed by pussyfooting around them?

It seems to me that we don’t need to shout people down, necessarily, but we also don’t need to be tremulous about calling things what they are. Sure, lots of people hate being called racist. Thing is, they can generally control that by changing their actions.

It’s not a great idea to call someone racist when they’re not being racist. But if someone’s actions are racist, I see no percentage in pretending otherwise. And if someone tells me I’m being racist, I’m going to look at what I’m doing to see if they’re right. If they’re wrong, okay–but if they’re right, I need to change.

Too often, I think, white people are really comfortable not having to think about race and don’t much care that nonwhite people in our culture get to think about it all the time. If you want the comfort of not having to think about race, work to make that comfort available to everyone.

[akennett]

@monstro

Imagine if someone were to put on a movie about the American Revolution starring an overwhelming black cast, with white people only serving as scenery. There would no doubt be complaints about how this not only misrepresents history, but that it conveys the message that white people are only useful as props.

Now imagine that someone’s response to this criticism is: “But Halle Berry’s in it! She’s half-white!”

That’s how I feel about pointing out Ben Kingsley. It’s a stupid response to a very reasonable argument.

One problem with this comparison is that the American Revolution is an actual historical event, unlike the story of the film in question. If you want a more apt comparison, you should probably stick to the fictions of another religion – one of an unquestionably white population, preferably.

Happily, we have an actual example to look to for that comparison – the various reactions to Idris Elba playing Heimdall in Thor. In that case, those who were upset at the apparent race of the character being changed were shouted down as being racist. Why the change here?

[Urbanredneck]

@monstro

I just read this critique of Ridley Scott’s Exodus: Gods and King. Perhaps one solution to combating racism is for people to stop supporting movies where all the dark-skinned people are relegated to scenery. With Hollywood having the diverse acting talent that it has right now, such a film is simply unacceptable in 2014. If we stop supporting these films and excusing lazy filmmaking, maybe this bullshit will stop.

Boycotting one movie is going to stop racism?

Are you serious?

BTW, speaking of movies I found it interesting how they figured out how to get some black people into the last “Hobbit” movie.

[Urbanredneck]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I agree–it’s a tricky problem to unravel.

Schools are infamous for giving more office referrals to black boys than to other groups, and I’m very uncomfortably aware of that. At the same time, if I have kids living in a high-crime housing project, those kids are likely to respond to perceived slights with more aggression than will kids living in safer neighborhoods; aggressive hyper-response is a rational response when there’s little protection from aggressors. Those kids are gonna get in more trouble at school if we don’t tolerate this sort of overreaction to perceived slights. And those kids, at least in my area, are overwhelmingly African American, and you can trace the reasons for this back to some crazy racist decisions made by city planners in the 1970s.

I know about the problem of too many office referrals for black boys. What do I do when it’s primarily black boys engaging in physical violence, the one behavior I’m really likely to write a referral for? Granted I spend a lot of time talking about different home and school behaviors in advance, trying to head off that sort of behavior transfer. Do I accept a higher level of physical aggression in the classroom than I otherwise would? Do I accept a different level from kids in poverty than I accept from middle-class kids? Do I become part of the problem by writing a disproportionate number of referrals for black kids? Is there another solution I can enact?

It’s an ugly problem, and I really don’t know a good answer to it.

In the same way I’ve seen white teachers reluctant to give bad grades to black students when they know they havent had the same educational background. This causes a chain effect of low expectations so when the black students go on to college they have more problems.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@akennett

One problem with this comparison is that the American Revolution is an actual historical event, unlike the story of the film in question. If you want a more apt comparison, you should probably stick to the fictions of another religion – one of an unquestionably white population, preferably.

Happily, we have an actual example to look to for that comparison – the various reactions to Idris Elba playing Heimdall in Thor. In that case, those who were upset at the apparent race of the character being changed were shouted down as being racist. Why the change here?

Well, let’s see here…

• Exodus is taken as actual historical fact by a great many people; Thor is an already extremely fictionalized take on a religion that almost nobody believes at all. A more fair comparison would be if Moses in Exodus was a superhero in spandex, and Pharaoh had a giant mecha-suit.
• Even barring that, exodus, as a story, is clearly intended to take place in a certain real place and a certain real time; Heimdall’s existence is entirely fantasy. He guards the rainbow bridge.
• There’s a significant lack of high-profile roles given to non-Caucasian actors; particularly within the superhero and fantasy genres. Name me 6 white superheroes. Should be no problem, there’s a fuckin’ bajillion of 'em. Now name me 3 Native American superheroes. 3 Black superheroes. 3 Asian superheroes. Not so easy, is it (hell, even most manga characters are drawn to be clearly Caucasian)? Yeah, it’s a double standard that casting white actors in roles like “basically anyone important in Egypt ca. 3000 BC” is seen as a bad thing, while casting black folks in roles like Nick Fury is seen as acceptable. A double standard that I’d be a lot more chagrined about if there were more than a handful of roles in such movies that black people could take. If there wasn’t this massive cultural bias already, where the great roles are almost universally written/drawn for white people.

[septimus]

Studies from many different perpsectives demonstrate that blacks get less justice in America. Anyone who disputes that is ignorant … and/or a racist.

And thanks for the interesting study about pain medication. I was unaware of it, although I check Facebook a few times a week. (My Newsfeed is tiny and I still don’t read it all.)

@XT

Hell, there is racism on all sides, …
… Really? First I’ve heard of that.

I’m not sure exactly what XT means with “There is racism on all sides” – Whites are oppressed by Affirmative Action? Some black wants to date XT’s daughter? – but I guess in his “mind”, the score is 1-1, a wash. We can ignore racism … or better yet, root for “our side.”

And then, instead of acknowledging the interestingness and relevance of the painkiller studies, XT hijacks the thread to rant about Facebook.

I barely keep track of the personalities here at SDMB, but XT has emitted repeated symptoms of ignorance. Fight it, XT! And, though you may not even know it, you seem to be a racist. Fight that too!

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

• There’s a significant lack of high-profile roles given to non-Caucasian actors; particularly within the superhero and fantasy genres. Name me 6 white superheroes. Should be no problem, there’s a fuckin’ bajillion of 'em. Now name me 3 Native American superheroes. 3 Black superheroes. 3 Asian superheroes. Not so easy, is it (hell, even most manga characters are drawn to be clearly Caucasian)? Yeah, it’s a double standard that casting white actors in roles like “basically anyone important in Egypt ca. 3000 BC” is seen as a bad thing, while casting black folks in roles like Nick Fury is seen as acceptable. A double standard that I’d be a lot more chagrined about if there were more than a handful of roles in such movies that black people could take. If there wasn’t this massive cultural bias already, where the great roles are almost universally written/drawn for white people.

Just to make this perfectly clear:
It’s a small double standard that we “recolor” roles in films to give minorities more opportunities to get on screen.
It’s a big double standard that this is necessary in the first place.

Think of all the big-name superheroes.

Superman - white guy, despite being a freakin’ alien (now there’s some subtext for you - this entire species of superhuman aliens are whitebread caucasian!)
Batman - white guy
Captain America - white guy
Thor - white guy
Iron Man - white guy
Hulk - white guy
Black widow - white chick
Hawkeye - white guy
Spiderman - white guy
Wolverine - white guy
Professor X - white guy
Phoenix/Jean Gray - white chick
Cyclops - white guy
Magneto - white guy
Nightcrawler - Hispanic? Maybe? He’s blue. What do you want from me?
Mystique - fucked if I know, but the role was given to a white chick twice
Falcon - black guy
Nick Fury - originally white guy
Star Lord - white guy
Classic, Golden Age, JSA, and JLA Green Lantern - white guy, white guy, white guy, and white guy
New Green Lantern that few people care about - black guy
Dr. Strange - white guy
Loki - white guy
The entire Fantastic Four - white guys
Dr. Doom - white guy
Black Panther - black guy
Manitou Raven - who the fuck even is Manitou Raven?! He’s a Native American, and that’s literally his complete identity - he’s an Indian shaman stereotype, pretty much the only Native American superhero I can name (unless you want to count fucking T. Hawk from Street Fighter, who is also a racist stereotype, or Thunder Hawk from Killer Instinct, who is also a racist stereotype, or Tonto from The Lone Ranger, last played by Johnny Fucking Depp…)
Psylocke - Asian chick
Luke Cage - black guy
Black Goliath - no, seriously, they called him “Black Goliath”.

…You notice how we’re sorta scraping the bottom of the barrel? Granted, this is just comic books, but if you look throughout virtually all of popular culture, you’ll find a similar pattern.

So is it any wonder that there’s no outrage at turning a handful of traditionally “white” fantasy roles over to African-Americans, but quite a lot of outrage at whitewashing ancient Egypt, a place where it makes absolutely no sense for there to be a bunch of white people running the show? Also, it would have been a great opportunity to offer black actors, who have enough trouble getting into the genre because of the racial imbalances of the source material, roles in huge fantasy blockbusters. Whoops.

And hey, you know why it’s now basically Marvel canon that Heimdall and Nick Fury are black? Because their race is completely and utterly immaterial to their character and Idris Elba and Samuel L. Jackson fucking killed it in their roles. That’s why.