I am getting married next year to a Catholic, and I am Methodist. We met with my Pastor on Sunday and her Priest last night… I have a few questions…
We are going to go through Pre Cana, I have a small understanding of what that is about, but would anyone like to elaborate and give me some general information?
We are having the wedding in my (Methodist) church, and were asking about the possibility of havining communion at the wedding. We understand our beliefs are different about communion but I was supprised to learn that Catholics are not allowed to take communion at any non-Catholic Church, and they are also not in favor of non-Catholics receiving from Catholics.
Can somone explain why?
Our children must be Catholic, and my fiance has to sign a piece of paper stating that.
I don’t like this one so much… Has anyone had a similar experience?
I don’t want this to turn into a debate of any kind… I am just looking for some information.
The reason for the Communion restrictions is that Roman Catholics (and the Orthodox) have not reduced Communion to a mere symbol.
As an Orthodox priest once summed up the attitude from an Orthodox standpoint: It’s like a couple of swingers not understanding why you and your wife don’t want to “share” your intimacy with them.
The general purpose of the Pre-Cana classes is to ensure that the couple understands the sacramental aspects of a marriage - from the Catholic viewpoint, of course - and to provide some practical grounding and counseling with the goal of ensuring that your commitment will be life-long.
It varies from diocese to diocese, but typically, the classes consist of a communication workshop, in which areas that sometimes cause friction in married life are explored and discussed. These things include handling of finances, plans for children, sexuality, each person’s past, spirituality, and the like. There’s also typically an enocunter session with a married couple that can offer insight and guidance.
The Roman Catholic belief is that the bread and wine, when consecrated during Catholic Mass, become the real body and blood of Jesus. For this reason, Catholics feel that offering communion to those that do not share this belief is inappropriate. For the same reason, taking communion in another Christian setting is also inappropriate, because it is not the real body and blood of Christ.
The general proposition is that, in a mixed marriage, the Catholic partner has to agree that he or she will make every effort to ensure that the children are raised in the Catholic faith.
Three separate General Questions here. I’ll deal with each separately.
“Pre Cana” or “Engaged Encounter” is simply a marraige preparation course that people who want to be married in the Catholic church have to go through. Usually, couples have a choice: attend a weekend-long seminar with a group of other engaged couples, or have a series of meetings with an older, married Catholic “sponsor couple.”
I’m sure the specifics vary from diocese to diocese, but in general, these seminars are not a particularly religious affair. Seriously. Most of the topics covered are practical ones. The idea is NOT to browbeat couples about the faith as it is to make sure that they’ve talked about all the important issues: do both parties have the same views about money, about children, about sex, about lifestyles… everything that they’ll have to deal with in marriage.
The Church didn’t require this sort of thing when I was a kid, but today… well, the rate of divorce among Catholics is almost as high as it is among the population at large. So, the Church decided some time ago that young people who wanted to marry had to go through some preparation, to make sure there wouldn’t be any big surprises after the wedding. If there are serious issues that could threaten a marriage later, it’s best they be addressed now.
The people running the Engaged Encounter weekend are very rarely Catholic clergy. Most likely, they’ll be older married couples. And they aren’t going to be sitting in judgement of you, deciding whether you and your fiance are allowed to get married. They’ll simply give a series of talks and presentations, then have the two of you do a lot of writing and talking about the issues presented.
This CAN be pretty dull stuff, or it can be interesting and useful. Much depends on the people doing the presentations. In the worst case scenario, if the hosts are really dull… well, treat the weekend the way you would a defensive driving class: a necessary nuisance. But on the positive side, maybe you’ll learn some things about each other that you really need to know.
I (a lifelong Catholic) was once married to a Protestant woman. The ceremony was performed at a Protestant church by a Catholic priest. Again, rules and practices may vary from place to place (you MAY live in a diocese with a very strict, traiditonalist bishop who believes in rules and putting everything in writing), but I was never made to sign a statement promising that our children would be raised Catholic. I was merely asked orally to pledge that I would do all in my power to see that they were.
And, while I understand why a non-Catholic partner might object, I can’t see what grounds the Catholic partner could object to this. IF you take your faith (whatever it may be) seriously, you SHOULD be determined to share it with your children. And if you DON’T take your faith all that seriously… well, then why do you want to be married in the Catholic Church?
I can’t and won’t tell you and your fiance how you should raise your children- I merely ask, have you discussed how you’ll raise them? If not, you should. The issue will surely come up in the Pre Cana session anyway.
For the record, there’s no way the Church can enforce such a pledge anyway, even if he signed one. IF, after long discussions, you decide to raise your kids Methodist, the bishop isn’t going to come after your husband, waving a form with his signature, and yell “You lied! You’re xcommunicated!”
**
Finally, Communion. This is the most complicated part. Please understand that different Christian denominations have VERY different attitudes toward Communion.
To put it simplistically and crudely, to some Protestant denominations (especially fundamentalists), Communion is simply crackers and grape juice, with no sacramental quality. To them, Communion is a purely symbolic ritual.
To Catholics, on the other hand, Communion is NOT just bread and wine. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is real and present in the bread and wine, and that partaking of Communion is equivalent to taking Jesus inside them.
And, of course, there are many Christian Churches that either take some kind of middle position (as the Lutherans do) or which don’t clearly spell out a position at all, and let individual clergy or members believe what they want (“You believe it’s the body and blood of Christ? Fine! You believe it’s just crackers and grape juice? That’s fine too!”). The Methodist Church falls into that latter category.
Now, suppose that Fred attends a fundamentalist church that regards Communion as purely symbolic. If his Catholic friend Steve happened to go to Fred’s church for a wedding, Fred wouldn’t mind in the least if Steve partook of Communion. But if Fred went to Steve’s church for a wedding, he’d probably be told NOT to partake of Communion.
Suppose, then, that Fred’s said, “Well that’s not FAIR, dang it! We let outsiders have OUR communion, so why can’t I have theirs?” Would Fred be right?
No, I don’t think so. Even when two rituals bear a striking superficial similarity, they can have VERY different meanings. Communion means very different things to Catholics than it does to most Protestants. So, when a Catholic is told “don’t take Communion at on-Catholic churches,” or when a Catholic priest won’t give Communion to a non-Catholic, it’s not a matter of being rude or exclusionary or haughty (“our bread is better than yours, nyah nyah!”).
If this is a real problem, perhaps it would be best to have a religious wedding without a full accompanying Communion service.
Ummm… if this question only came up after your meeting with the Catholic priest, that’s fine. But if you had this question while you were with the priest and were afraid to ask… don’t be. Be assertive and ask questions. You have a right to know.
‘Pre-Cana’ is an umbrella term for ‘marriage preparation workshop.’ Its ultimate goal is to get you two talking about everything you need to talk about before the marriage (so that you don’t find yourselves married and then you discover one of you wants one kid, and the other wants ten). {BTW, Cana is the town in which Jesus turned the water into wine at a wedding reception.}
When done well, Pre-Cana follows an adult model of education (other than the fact that you’re forced to attend) in which the environment is set for you two to prepare yourselves. They’re not going to teach you how to be married, but couples from the parish will share with you and the large group, their own experience of marriage on topics such as: communication; sexuality; finances; spirituality, et. al. Then, it’s up to you two to then discuss that same topic with each other. You only get out of it what you put into it.
Incidentally, there should be no one monitoring your discussion, or forcing you to share things with the large group that you don’t want to share, or ‘grading’ any of the worksheets they give you. So, relax, you won’t be put on the spot by anyone except your fiance!
I’m assuming that the Catholic priest has approved this and will fill out the paper work in order to get permission from the local Catholic bishop to allow your Catholic fiance to get married outside the environs of a Catholic church. Such permission is granted pro forma if there’s a good reason, e.g., the non-Catholic party is very active in their own church, or has an non-Catholic minister in the family who’ll be performing the ceremony.
The roots of the Catholic prohibition of mutual reception of Communion is twofold:
Theological – The RCC believes that bread and wine is really, really Jesus Christ. Some Protestant denominations do not believe this, thus, they can not receive Catholic Communion and vice versa.
Disciplinary – There are Protestant denominations which do believe that the bread and wine is really, really Jesus Christ (e.g., Lutherans and Episcopalians). However, mutual Communion is still prohibited because mutual Communion is a visible sign of Church unity. However, Church unity is currently broken since Protestant churches do not recognize the ultimate institutional authority of the Pope. In this case, those who break the ban on mutual Communion are not so much doing anything theologically evil (for the hope is that one day, the unity will be restored), but they are breaking human-made Church disciplinary law.
Your fiance will promise to have the children baptized Catholic. Your church recognizes such baptism as valid Christian baptism. Your fiance will promise to instruct the Children in the Catholic faith. Your Church recognizes that as a valid expression of Christian faith. And that’s it. Your fiance will not promise to exclude you from sharing your Methodist faith with your children. Catholic theology would consider the sharing of your faith with your children to be a natural right that you have. What the promise your fiance will make is to ensure that her Catholic faith will also be shared with your children.
You can bring your children to Methodist services and Methodist religious instruction (Protestants generally do children’s religious education better than Catholics, IMO). All you need to do, at the minimum, is to make sure the children receive two years of Catholic instruction prior to their first Holy Communion, and two years of instruction prior to their Confirmation.
The Priest did go over some of Pre Cana, but not into too much detail. He just explained that it is to make sure we understand what we are getting into, and to make sure we are talking about all of the important issues.
Yes, we have talked about this a few times.
It is a tough decision because I am more active with my church, but my fiance is much more knowledgeable about Catholicism than I am about being Methodist.
We had been leaning towards our children being Catholic, it was upsetting to hear that from the Priest though.
I understand the what communion means to both churches, I was just suprised that even if it were in another church, Why can you not at least accept the symbolism of it? I also thought maybe since there would be a Catholic Priest at the wedding, he would be able to give communion.
At this point it looks like we are going to throw out the communion idea.
Suppose a group of swingers had a purely “symbolic” form of marriage that was used at their parties. Okay, so why can’t a maritally faithful couple take part in it and “at least accept the symbolism of it?”
The “symbolism” or not of communion is a pretty strong sticking point in the gap between Catholics and Protestants.
I’m surprised the priest is even participating - it’s really, really rare for a Catholic priest to be involved in a wedding that’s not held in a Catholic church, from what I understand.
The way that the children issue was phrased with my husband and I (I was raised Protestant, he was Catholic and is now what he calls “recovering”) is that he had to acknowledge that he would do his best to see that any children were raised Catholic, and I had to acknowledge that I witnessed him making this promise. The priest had no complaint about the statement that any children would also be exposed to Protestant teachings/churches.
For Pre-Cana, we had the weekend sessions with other couples, and we also had a few meetings with a married couple from the church. We took a psychological test designed to measure communication between couples (as a psych major, I recognized it as a pretty well-respected test, though I can’t remember its name now) - it asked questions about your opinions on different issues that tend to cause conflict in marriages. Then you went over any differing answers, and talked out why you felt how you did about the subject.
It’s rare because the most often given reason that a mixed Catholic-Protestant marriage is ‘allowed’ to happen in a Protestant church is that the Protestant spouse has a very strong connection with their church, and that means a family member or close friend wind up being the presiding minister. Thus, the Catholic priest is not needed. In these cases, dispensation is granted both for the marriage to take place in a Protestant church and for the officiating minister to be Protestant.
So, while infrequent, it’s no big deal.
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Most likely it was FOCCUS (Facilitating Open Couple Communicating Understanding & Study – talk about a forced acronym).
I’m in a similar position as you merge, but I’m Catholic and my wife is Baptist. We got married in a Methodist church (which actually used to be Catholic) by a Catholic Priest and her Methodist cousin who is a pastor. It is rare that priests perform the ceremony outside of the Catholic church, but since her cousin was presiding over the wedding they allowed it.
Pre Cana was 2 night classes followed by a Saturday event. I thought it would all be tedious but it was actually interesting, you fill out questionaires, meet with a councellor, discuss potential problems, etc. It was worthwhile.
As Bricker said, the signature says something along the lines of “I will do everything in my power to raise our children Catholic”. It’s not a “raise them Catholic or else”.
Allow me the diverge the OP with something related that I’m curious about. I’m married to a Catholic. She calls it a “civil” marriage because it wasn’t done in a Catholic church (done by a Unitarian minister). Now, though, she says she can’t confess and therefore not take communion, because she’s living in sin.
So, I’d like her not to live in sin. The fact that we’re already legally married would have any effect on Pre Cana? Would we still be have to do it? It’d be complicated by her not really being able to communicate in English yet… then what needs to be done to allow her to “marry” me in the church? I won’t convert to Catholicism, but I am a Christian with no strong ties to any church. We sometimes attend a local Catholic church, but we’re not members (do Catholic churches have “memberships” the same as, for example, Baptist?). Furthermore even though the priest is Catholic, I have respect for him as a Christian, so I couldn’t lie to him and say I promise to raise any kids as Catholic – maybe, maybe not, but I can’t promise. How does one start getting a dispensation? And who? Me for not being Catholic, or her for wanting to marry a non-Catholic? And is there any way to get the chruch to recognize the existing marriage without actually having to get married again?
Not quite. In the Catholic world, you live within the geographical boundries of a parish. Your residence determines your “membership” – that is, the parish to which you belong by virtue of canon law.
It’s wise to register in your parish, but that’s just so the parish knows you exist.
It’s the Catholic partner that must make that promise.
Yes. The Church just needs to investigate and ensure that you were both free to marry under Church law, and there may be a dioscean requirement for some pre-Cana type after-the-fact class, but your marriage may be recognized without another ceremony.
Roman Catholics: “closed communion” (maritally fidelitous), are told not to “share” their Communion (swing at home) or to “share” another group’s “Communion” (swing somewhere else).
Mere symbolists: “open communion” (swingers), get all huffy when they come across people who have “closed communion” (practice marital fidelity).
Non-catholics need no dispensations. They are presumed to simply not know any better (if one is being charitable). Recognizing a mere civil marriage is highly unlikely. A mere civil marriage is nothing but a government license, and the Roman Catholic Church does not recognize the government as a valid dispenser of Sacraments.
Here’s the deal. The institution of the RCC, in order to ensure that its members are well prepared and properly disposed toward marriage has made it a legal requirement that all baptized Catholics get married ‘through’ the Church (by a priest or deacon in a RCC building, but these elements can be dispensed with for a good reason). If a Catholic does not get married through the Church, then the institution of the Church won’t recognize its existence as a sacramental union.
Now, however, if two Protestant Christians marry in their church or in front of a justice of the peace, then that will be recognized as a sacramental marriage because Protestants are not obliged to follow Church law.
So, yes, the RCC does not recognize the sacramental validity of your civil marriage.
**Your wife can go to confession. And while, technically, you two are committing simple fornication, she may get permission from her priest to go to communion if it turns out that certain conditions are met. But that’s best left between her and her priest.
**Keep in mind that from the point of view of the RCC, the problem is not the state of your souls. The RCC is not saying you two are sinners or you’re damned. The RCC is simply saying that from its view as an physical institution, it sees you two living together and not married in the way it defines marriage. It looks bad from the outside, but it’s not passing judgment on what’s inside. Only God can see that. [BTW, this is not me spouting my opinion. I’m quite familiar with RCC theology and law.]
**The RCC calls the sacramental marriage of a couple already civilly married a convalidation. You’re local parish priest will still make you prepare for a sacramental marriage and this may include going to pre-Cana. (There are lots of couples in your situation, don’t worry about it.) Or, your priest (and/or deacon) may prepare you individually. This may have to be the case with a priest, deacon, or marriage preparation couple who are bilingual for the sake of your wife.
Basically, you just approach the parish and go through the same procedure as any couple who was not already married civilly.
** You don’t have to convert. You don’t have to promise to raise the children Catholic. Your wife, as the Catholic party makes that promise. (I’m assuming you won’t have a problem with that since you have no strong ties yourself to a Christian church.)
Your priest/deacon will make a request to the local bishop to allow a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic Christian. The request is granted pro forma. The ceremony can be very, very simple. Just you two, the priest, and two witness. Done in 10 minutes. But you will have to exchange vows again.
Except that the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize a priest as a valid dispenser of this particular Sacrament, either. The Sacrament of Marriage is dispensed by the couple being married, to each other. The priest is just there to officiate.
The ceremony with the rings and the witnesses and such is just a tradition, and a way of formally announcing the marriage to the community. But it’s not the wedding itself.
At least, so said all three of the Catholic schools I attended, my Sunday School teachers, and my formerly cloistered mother.