Weird situation: would you have stayed?

In My Humble Opinion
261

Something to consider:

There seems to be general agreement here that the woman whose arm was trapped was acting irrationally, as indicated by the vituperative way she addressed the OP.

I would say that kayaker was approaching the situation rationally, particularly in regards to his attempting to find a quick solution to the problem. There’s a high probability that the methods he was suggesting (using a coat hanger to pop the lock, calling the nearby service station) would have resolved the issue in minutes. Even if he had called 911 and/or insisted to the police that it was an emergency, it seems quite questionable that there would have been a quick response. How close was the nearest state trooper at the time? Trying to get her loose by a method that would take one minute or five minutes strikes me as the far preferable thing to do.

Yet he has been criticized for not immediately acquiescing to her stated wishes. The stated wishes of a person who was behaving irrationally and could not realistically be assumed to have been thinking clearly. I think any reasonable assessment of the scenario supports the notion that his ideas of what to do made perfect sense. He is not deserving of criticism for what amounts to trying to act in her best interests.

262

As one of the people who criticized him for not calling 911 as she requested, I would just like to say that kayaker’s subsequent explanation of how 911 and the non-emergency number work in his area have cleared that up for me. Everywhere I’ve ever lived, calling 911 will result in a much quicker response than calling the non-emergency number, so I didn’t understand why he wouldn’t call 911, particularly when she specifically asked him to. But it sounds like the non-emergency number is better in his area, so I get it now.

263

Something I’ve learned in life is some people are calm and collected and do the right thing during an emergency or a crisis, some people panic. The woman in this situation is not one of the calm and collected types. So I genuinely wouldn’t have been offended at all by her yelling abuse at me. It’s sort of like working as a lifeguard and saving a drowning person, drowning people usually are not thinking rationally and may try to hit you, bite you, scratch you, pull you down under with them or etc. I wouldn’t hold that behavior against them because they are in a state of panic.

As for the morality of this specific situation, while I think it petty and little to get offended when a panicked person yells obscenities at you, I don’t actually think the OP could have meaningfully done anything at all by staying. You’re not allowed to mess with someone’s car or to touch someone else physically if they do not want you to, she obviously didn’t want him trying to get her arm out of the car so it would not have been appropriate for him to try. She had already been stranded out there alone for thirty minutes, so I would argue that it’s reasonable to presume she wasn’t in any great danger from wandering wolves or things of that nature, I’m not sure how him being there for another thirty would have changed things. Finally, she doesn’t sound like someone who would have benefited from “moral support” so at the end of the day while I disagree with the “she called me names so screw her” attitude (especially when dealing with a panicked person) I don’t really know that he could have done anything. A professional emergency responder will have training in trying to resolve such a situation and a clear understanding of what they are or are not allowed to do in spite of the woman’s protests, the OP lacks that and in his shoes I wouldn’t have done anything different most likely.

264

Funny. That’s exactly what it sounds like to me.

265

Rule #1–If somebody tells you to call 9-1-1, do i!

266

That’s right. Don’t assess the situation at all. Emergency service personnel don’t care about frivolous calls, and love to help people who want to save money on the price of glass.

Break the window, and let her decide if she still wants to make the call.

267

Reminds me of the guy having a heart attack on April Fools Day telling his wife to call 911 and her not believing him.

268

Wow, yes! This!

Well, this pretty much nails it. This is a really basic, core difference in how you and I regard ourselves and our ethical places in society. It takes all kinds I suppose.

Thank you for further explaining this. If I was in your shoes and had done the same up to this point, I probably would have just white-lied and said “I called the cops, they’ll be here ASAP but given where we are it’ll be a while.” And sidestepped the whole 911 vs non-emergency line issue. That’s clearly Monday-morning quarterbacking on my part though.

Well, I think you’re falling into a trap here, thinking of the SDMB as a hive mind - almost like the earlier posters in this thread who read the thread and concluded that “everyone” posting would have abandoned the woman when in fact only a minority said any such thing.

It’s this same thinking that leads to some people claiming that everyone on the boards is a lazy excuse-proffering fatass/fat apologist, while in fact you’ll see poster after poster trumpeting “Calories in/calories out, just exercise and eat poached chicken!” in any thread even tangentially related to weight loss or body image issues. Really, this board isn’t monolithic on any serious issue - it’s a big part of what keeps me interested. Sure, there are generalities, common interests (kitty pics etc) but there is always, always vocal dissent. And generally, this dissent is treated with, if not respect, certainly more of a fair hearing than in most other online communities. Basically, just because certain trends emerge in some threads (black humor in this case), that doesn’t mean that “the board” is in favor of black humor. Likewise, the objections voiced here in this thread to the specific rape jokes/hostile environment don’t mean that “the board” holds those objections. Does this make sense?

Also, as the first one to open this can o’ threadrape, I’d like to say that I wouldn’t post to a thread just to call out a joke I didn’t like. It doesn’t seem necessary or productive to me, just kinda rude to butt into a conversation to say you don’t like the tone. I did want to post to participate in the actual conversation though, as it really intrigued me. At that point, I did feel that joining in without calling out the ick was not what I wanted to do, as it would seem (to me) like going along with it. Was it necessary? Probably not, but neither were the jokes themselves so I don’t feel bad about it. This is IMHO, not GD or GQ.

269

“Wanting to save money on the price of glass” brings to mind (as I’m sure you’re well aware) someone standing in the aisle at Home Depot musing about what type of storm windows to get. “Wanting to get their swelling arm out of a stuck car window as quickly as possible” sounds a lot less frivolous.

270

This. She could have been out, injury free in seconds after kayaker arrived if she hadn’t been insane. It wasn’t her stuck arm that made this a crisis it was her reaction to it. A hammer (use the claw side it works better) to one of the back windows or passenger side window, reach in, roll down her window and she’s free.

While emergency services will assist they don’t rebill often enough to discourage idiots from using it as the solution of first resort. If there’s a real threat, a real medical situation or a stuck with no quick alternative situation they are there to help but it’s a waste of time and money to have a cop drive out there to break the window.

271

From a strict, CYA perspective, I would have called 911 and stayed until help arrived. Because this bit o’ craziness is happening at my workplace, not some random place that I’m not personally attached to. So the outcome of this event could have implications on my future. If the police eventually showed up and found the woman dead, severely injured…or assaulted by a grifter who just happened to show up right after I left…then eyes would be shifted towards me. I’m sure everyone has enough problems in routine life to be unable to afford that kind of stress.

The woman was clearly panicked and behaving like you’d expect anything in the animal kingdom to act when they are in this situation. You can criticize her on a number of fronts. But unless you’ve been in that situation before–you don’t know how you’d be. I don’t think I’d be the “don’t leave, motherfucker!” type, but I might bug out in another way. Especially if my mind had gone to bad places while waiting for help.

I would like to think I’d have stayed and not even from a distance. I would have ignored her rantings and tried my best to make her comfortable. After calling the police and coming back to tell her help would be on the way, don’t worry, everything is going to be okay–I’d have brought her what I think she might need or appreciate, without offering. Like something to drink (she’s been screaming and crying for a long time, presumably). Food. (That’s another reason I would have been reluctant to leave. She could have been diabetic or something. What if she had gone into some kind of shock, with her arm pinned like that?) If I had a stool in the office, I would have brought it to her so she could sit down. I would have offered to call someone at home for her…maybe they could have driven out to attend her until the police showed up…allowing me a chance to leave, if I really had to. Maybe if I had attended to her for a minutes without dismissing her panicky pleas first, she would have turned into a normal person.

Running off because she called you a bunch of names and was freaked out…that sounds a bit punkish, IMHO. She behaved horribly, yes, but it’s kind of like expecting someone who’s drowning to be the picture of calmness and decorum. (And yes, to someone who’s stuck in what appears to be the middle of nowhere, late in the day, in a physically compromising position, their situation may be akin to “drowning” in their eyes.) I actually don’t think it requires much empathy to be able to figure this out. Just knowing something about human nature.

But like I said from the get-go of this post, the ramifications of abandoning her on the OP should have been on the forefront of his mind, if nothing else. It was just luck that everything worked out. If the OP had reported the same story only with a sad, tragic ending, I don’t think a lot of people would be saying, “Yes, I woulda done that too! Fuck that bitch-drama!”

272

That’s right, if an empty house is burning down don’t call 911 for the people that just want to save money on building a new house!

273

I would have stayed, but I don’t blame you for leaving.

274

I would have called 911, told her I called, and then moved far enough away to save my eardrums.

Since I see a number of people who are actually crazy, I’ve learned that they really can’t run their own lives.

Sounds like she wasn’t really capable or willing to be calm and have a good approach to her problem, so I would have taken action and stayed to ensure that actual professional problem solvers would arrive.

But I do understand wanting to leave.

275

:dubious: Only if she’s from Bizarro World.

276

I guess I have a little more sympathy for the woman, but I’m not willing to say kayaker has some suspect ethical code. It’s not like he didn’t do anything to help. Certainly he could have done more, but isn’t that true in virtually every situation?

I’ve grown used to crass jokes on this board. I don’t necessarily get on board but if you’ve been on the SDMB you know this is par for the course, so they kind of whoosh right past me.

Back to the OP. I’m still amazed that when a person shows up and has the ability to help, the reaction is so nasty. I wonder if people would react the same if the arm-stuckee was a man?

277

Probably not.

But then…maybe we wouldn’t have that rape joke either?

I think there is a double-standard. I’d be the first to admit that if there was a man with his hand caught in a window, hollering and cussing at me, I’d probably be wary of doing anything but the bare minimum to help him.

Of course, in my head, I’m picturing someone twice as big as I am, with the easy ability and some twisted motive to do me harm if he wasn’t actually what he seemed to be (e.g., faking he was stuck just so that I would come closer). And also, I’m picturing someone who wouldn’t be particularly vulnerable if someone more evil than I am came up on them.

So I’ve got those assumptions swirling in my head: That his male-dom makes him more potentially dangerous to me than a woman would be–thus, making avoiding him as much as possible a wise decision–and that he is more able to fend for himself if I do leave him alone. Fear, rather than irritation, would ultimately make me leave him alone.

But those are crazy assumptions. Most guys are not twice as big as I am and a trapped man is a helpless person in the face of danger. Someone in a panic is scary, period. Male or female. So yeah, bad on me for allowing my prejudice to influence my emotional response (fear versus irritation).

Still, I think it would be wise for the OP or anyone else that is in this situation to NOT follow their avoidant tendencies and actually see the whole process through. Just in case something DOES go down, like the person losing consciousness or being mauled by a wild animal, you wouldn’t have the case of the “If only I had stayed…” regrets. It’s not that my heart goes out to every hurt soul and that I’d be falling out at the funeral for someone I didn’t even know. It’s more that I wouldn’t want to be suspected of having involvements with any bad outcome since I’d be the last known contact. And if police officials wouldn’t suspect me, people would still be wondering why I didn’t stay, knowing good and well would could have happened. I’d be feeling guilty enough. I wouldn’t need other people guilt-tripping me.

People are saying this was a non-emergency situation, but we actually don’t know this. I’m thinking of a number of reasons why I, as the person who’s been standing there with my arm stuck in a window for an hour, might think it’s an emergency and the OP wouldn’t have a chance to learn any of it due to my crazy-ass panic. Maybe the person is prone to asthmatic attacks, insulin shock, epilepsy, or cardiac problems. None of these conditions are particularly rare and all are worsened under stress. And then yes, there’s the whole grifter-with-untoward-motives thing. Perhaps if this had happened in a suburban or urban environment where other people are and there is police presence, and it had happened at the beginning of the day instead of at the end, I could see how being more hands-off wouldn’t be that big of a deal. But with the variables at play (especially the isolation…what if the police hadn’t shown up?), I could easily see how this mildly humorous, “How stupid is this?” incident could turn into a Darwin Awards-winning death announcement.

278

After calling 911 I would have left, and then probably 3 driveways up the road my conscience would have forced me to go back. But as some others have said, I would have done so only by first telling her (even if I didn’t really mean it), “you pipe down or I’m leaving, you have no right to behave that way”.

I don’t care how panicked one is, that doesn’t entitle a person to be abusive and, at least based on the OP’s description, that’s exactly what she was being.

279

I hope I would have kept my temper and stayed somewhere nearby. It would just worry me to leave someone stuck in an isolated position with no one else to help.

The woman was probably utterly, totally off her brain with fear and panic. She probably shouldn’t have been, but some people are just not resilient enough to cope with such a thing. There’s no point in talking of a person at such a time in terms of ordinary manners: they’re human brain has left the building, and they are working on pure lizard brain.

That said, maybe she just generally was a bitch. Also, in my case, it is possible that I would have lost my temper and left. I have a lizard brain too and I don’t pretend that my rational human brain always keeps on top of things when having angry abuse hurled at it.

280

The quote from kayaker is in page 1.

I am a woman, and in this case I would have called for help and asked whether I could leave the scene or not under local laws; I would be fearing that this woman would attack me upon release. Calling a non-emergency number wouldn’t even have occurred to me, as in Spain you get 112, 112 or 112 - any other numbers are for things like asking for an appointment, not for “someone needs help”. If I knew that another number is faster, like the OP did, I would have called that one. When someone needs medical help and my sister in law is nearby I don’t call 112, I call out “Judy!”: same thing.

I’ve been known to yell at people trying to help when hurt/panicked… but I wouldn’t have stuck my arm in the window in the first place, and if I had and had seen there was somebody inside who couldn’t hear me, I would have peed on the spot and waited as calmly as I could.