Well here we go again. Jill Stein for Spoiler 2024

Jill Stein launches long-shot Green Party presidential campaign | AP News

Seven years ago someone said (and I’m extensively paraphrasing here), that the choice between Trump and Clinton was like that between a sandwich of cheap peanut butter on plain white bread, and a sandwich of shit on moldy blue bread infested by maggots, and how we all tried to convince the anti-HRC progressives that they needed to vote for that peanut butter sandwich. But they didn’t, so we got the shit on moldy maggoty bread instead.

(Do maggots eat bread? I don’t know. Maybe if there’s shit on it they will.)

Now it looks like we might see history repeat itself.

The link I’m giving here is just the AP news feed, but I first read about Jill Stein’s campaign on a conservative site. What I found really appalling is that the idea of Trump winning by another Electoral College technicality, despite the fact that almost certainly most participating voters won’t have chosen him, doesn’t faze the readers in the least. I can’t imagine Trump winning the popular vote, or a plurality in a three-way race, so I’m not going to even go there.

Anyway, if the worst does happen, no worries, right? I’m sure will see Trump lead with the same conscientious restraint, circumspection, wisdom, and recognition of the fact that most participating voters don’t want him, that we saw in 2017.

I don’t mind a libertarian candidate running for president because the libertarian party is attempting to become a legitimate political party as much as they can. They have a structure and try to run people at all levels of elections from dog catcher to president. The Green Party, however, doesn’t really exist as a serious political party. They run a candidate for president and go dormant at any time that’s not a run-up to a presidential election. My impression is that they are a willful spoiler for the democratic party, and a picture of Jill Stein floating around having dinner with Putin doesn’t help that case. Her candidacy probably isn’t even a way to raise awareness on issues - it seems like bad faith sabotage by the other side.

I can’t quite see libertarianism working in a complex society, but I agree that party is doing the groundwork that they need to do.

I have a feeling that anyone who would vote for Jill Stein in a three way Trump/Biden/Stein election would not vote in a Trump/Biden election. It’s not like they think she has a legitimate shot.

I hope and pray you’re right, but can’t help fearing she’ll be another Nader.

While you’re hoping and praying add this one to your list:
Sen. Joe Manchin says he ‘absolutely’ would consider a presidential run.

Don’t forget that RFK, Jr. is also running. Last I saw, 24% of voters in swing states would vote for him instead of Biden.

He isn’t going to get 2.4% or even 0.24%. He has a famous name but he’s as mad as a hatter. When people take a good look at him they’ll quickly look the other way.

Yabut, People actually have to take a good look at him. I suspect there’s a not insignificant number that will think, “Kennedy? I recognize that name. He’s a good guy. Ooo yeah!”

‘I ain’t sayin’ that worked for me but… I ain’t sayin’ it didn’t.’

They’ll eat organic matter, including fruit, vegetables, and meat going bad. They dislike “dry” food, so stale old bread probably won’t be appetizing, unless it has become wet and soft, then they might. Maggots have actual utility, as they can be used as fishing bait, and are even have medical uses (where they will remove necrotic tissue and clean wounds). Yes, imagine a maggot eating your rotten flesh for your own health benefit. So there is a body of knowledge out there for how to keep them fed, given that they can come in handy.

As gross as that talk is, I still think it’s less gross than the topic of voting for RFK, Jr.

I worry enough about a MAGAt eating my flesh…

Supposedly, infantry during the Napoleonic Wars carried about little boxes of maggots to treat wounds.

We have a ways to go yet, but at this point, the 2024 presidential election is shaping up to be a complete clusterfuck. I can hardly wait :grimacing:

The notion that Jill Stein spoiled the Electoral College vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 just isn’t borne out by evidence. In the only two states that Clinton lost by a margin that would be enveloped by the votes for Stein (Michigan and Wisconsin), Gary Johnson (Libertarian) had more than three times the quantity of votes than Hillary which inarguably pulled more Trump than Clinton. And frankly, if Clinton can’t attract Stein voters even more than she could those who cast for Trump, that just argues for what a terrible candidate she was because Stein’s platform and policy planks, such as they were, were almost as ill-defined and unachievable as Trump’s.

Now, I understand the argument that non-viable third party candidates pull votes away from viable candidates, and from a pragmatic standpoint they are ‘spoilers’ in a system that has become moribund into only allowing for two major competing parties to function, but honestly if a mainline candidate can’t develop a broad enough appeal to overcome a ~1% diversion of the popular vote to an edge-rider like Stein, they’re already way too marginal. In Clinton’s case, she made a deliberate decision to focus her campaigning on the ‘critical’ urban and suburban voters, spending little effort on expected Democratic ‘strongholds’, which is indicative of the larger problem of the Democratic Party having essentially abandoned rural voters.

Hillary Clinton was a legendarily bad candidate, in part because of the decades-long focused smear campaign but also because of her indifferent response to actual ethical lapses made them seem like bigger problems than they were, and it didn’t help that she came off as entitled to the presidency. Unfortunately, Biden isn’t shaping up to carry the votes he did in 2020 and may perform even worse than Clinton on 2016…which, again, has nothing to do with Stein who still isn’t going to carry more than a couple percent of votes in even the most optimistic estimates. Rage out at Jill Stein if it gives you a thrill, but that’s like complaining about the rain falling on your just-washed car while a sinkhole opens up underneath your house.

Stranger

Believe it or not, this is still a thing.

So apparently they hope to eliminate what they view as all the diseased woke, liberal, progressive rot and roll us back to 1825.

I’m looking at the figures in your link and I’m not following you, at least as far as those states are concerned.

In Michigan Trump got 2,279.805 votes to Clinton’s 2268193, which works out to a lead of 11,612 votes. Stein got 50,700, so if even just a quarter of those votes had gone to Clinton instead, ISTM she would have carried that state.

In Wisconsin Trump’s lead was greater, and Stein got fewer votes. In that state, nearly all of Stein’s votes would have had to go to Clinton instead, in order for her to carry that state. Which, on a certain level I still can’t understand why that didn’t happen. If they were motivated to vote for Stein, why would they vote to pave the way for Trump?

I get that people were repulsed by HRC, but I can’t fathom the thinking of anyone who professes environmentalist ideals yet didn’t vote in the only effective way to keep Trump out.

When Trump gets back in, he’ll probably shut down the EPA and order Justice to file a civil suit to nullify California’s stringent environmental laws. Or at least he’ll probably appoint an oil baron to run the EPA.

ETA: I get what you mean about Gary Johnson pulling more votes from Trump than Stein pulled from Clinton, but I’m not convinced that he was the greater spoiler. Republicans are less vulnerable to spoilers because they all tend to toe the line and vote for their candidate, instead of whining about how they refuse to vote for (the lesser) evil

It’s amazing that we’ve come to this; not only do things look bad for 2024, but also we sit in abject fear of a Constitutional Convention in which low population conservative states will be in charge, because the voting on amendments/alteration is state by state regardless of population.

As I noted in my earlier post (and you acknowledged at the bottom of your post) Johnson pulled in far more votes than Stein, and many of those were almost certainly either disaffected Republicans or die-hard Libertarians who were never going to vote for a candidate espousing the rhetoric of globalization (and not pushing marijuana legalization). And irrespective of Johnson, if Clinton was that marginal that she needed and couldn’t persuade a few thousand people to vote for her instead of a throw-away third party candidate (and one as flakey as Stein), then she was just a terrible candidate.

Never underestimate the power of the vengeance vote. I held my nose and voted for Clinton, not because I liked many of her policies or thought that she’d follow through on those I did, but because she at least had intelligible policies and actual experience in government…and also wasn’t Donald Trump. That she didn’t win, and then turned around and blamed everyone but herself just highlighted why she was a piss-poor choice. But there were a lot of disaffected people—and especially fanatical Bernie boosters, about whom I’ll just note that they should have been “Shocked, shocked!” that the DNC blocked their guy from being the Democratic nominee—who just weren’t going to vote for Hillary Clinton regardless of outcome.

Nah, the Republicans aren’t going to hold a Constitutional Convention. For one, that takes way too long and requires too much organization, which recent history shows that they just aren’t very good at. For another, despite constantly draping themselves in the flag, they don’t actually believe in the rule of law and don’t see a need for more of it, especially if it means they have to meet together in a room and agree to details (see above). As long as the Supreme Court is willing to give them everything they want and nullify federal protections of civil rights and voting laws, they’re happy shit-taking on a state level. Once you get into the convention space, now individual states are going to start trying to pull weight and drive the process to favor themselves. It’s much easier to just put inept or sabotaging heads in Secretary and administrative positions, depend on their Supreme Court majority and tendency of lower courts to allow appeals to SCOTUS, and just the general inertia of a rudderless bureaucracy to render impotent anything Congress might accidentally squeeze out that contravenes their ‘values’ than to risk a process where they actually have to get something done.

Stranger

That’s the way the “Founders” wanted to do it, the President is elected by “the several states” instead of population. One of my friends remarked that is you went by number of votes, New York, Texas and California would decide the winner.
Yeas, I did the math, and he was mistaken. Nonetheless, that’s how it was planned.