Well, it's happening now, you stupid mother fuckers (vaccines)

[Revenant_Threshold]

@magellan01

Since it boggles my mind too much to construct a scenario where we would pay for shots of illegals—ideally, before they get here—I can’t even entertain that bizzaro-worldness.

I meant more in terms of legals (and probably only skilled legals at that, if we’re talking practically) and U.S. citizens.

But you identify problems, I agree. But to me those problems simply point to why we should attempt to reduce the incidence where we can. And the first thing I would do is simply keep the illegals out. The fact that this has to even be said is amazing in itself. When you look at it through the lens of infectious disease, ten times more so.

It is amazing, since i’m not actually disagreeing with you on that - I think your Liberalism Run Amuck detector may have failed on this once. This is why I think this as a solution would only bring trouble; discounting illegal immigrants, this policy will only affect legal ones. And if you’re asking legal immigrants to pay more to get into the country, it just seems likely to me that a lot of them are going to come in illegally instead - that it would actually hurt matters rather than helping them.

The one thing I’d add is that if a government worker need extra shots to do their job, I see no reason why the government shouldn’t pay for that. I mean, they pay for uniforms and hard hats. But maybe I’ve misunderstood that point>

No, that was my point. Subsidies generally aren’t all that popular, though, and we’re talking a good many individual and perhaps even courses of shots before workers would even get to working. Which means yet more paperwork.

I don’t think, for the downsides, you’d get enough of an aid for it to be worth it. And that’s presuming that it would help at all.

[ManiacMan]

I believe there is a British Dr Abdul Majid Katme who is urging British Muslims not to vaccinate their children against diseases such as measles, mumps and rubella because it is “un-Islamic”…so you got a Muslim doctor urging Muslim people not to have thier kids vaccinated, and how is also contacting Imams. If this catches on Muslim communities will be extremely hard-hit with these dieseases.

He argued that leading “Islamically healthy lives” would be enough to ward off illnesses and diseases.

“You see, God created us perfect and with a very strong defence system. If you breast-feed your child for two years — as the Koran says — and you eat Koranic food like olives and black seed, and you do ablution each time you pray, then you will have a strong defence system,” he said.

“Many vaccines, especially those given to children, are full of haram substances — human parts, gelatine from pork, alcohol, animal/monkey parts, all coming from the West who do not have knowledge of halal or haram. It is forbidden in Islam to have any of these haram substances in our bodies.”…

[Revenant_Threshold]

Where are you citing that from, MM? I’d like to have a look at the whole article if possible.

[LavenderBlue]

@ManiacMan

I believe there is a British Dr Abdul Majid Katme who is urging British Muslims not to vaccinate their children against diseases such as measles, mumps and rubella because it is “un-Islamic”…so you got a Muslim doctor urging Muslim people not to have thier kids vaccinated, and how is also contacting Imams. If this catches on Muslim communities will be extremely hard-hit with these dieseases.

He has some ugly recent company:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1675423,00.html?xid=feed-cnn-topics

In Nigeria’s arid north these days, it may as well be 2003 all over again. This month, news began to circulate that a recent polio outbreak in the predominantly Muslim region was triggered by a vaccine designed to eliminate it, and it is jarring already raw nerves in the historically volatile setting.

In the summer of 2003, Muslim clerics and disgruntled northern politicians banned polio vaccinations in the area, claiming that the drugs were a Western ploy to spread HIV and sterilize Muslim girls. The year-long mass boycott of the vaccine sparked a rash of new infections, and the virus jumped to about a dozen other countries — a devastating rollback for a polio eradication campaign that seemed finally on the verge of success.

[billfish678]

Hi

I think the point to be made regarding (mostly) illegal aliens is this:

IFFFF these american citizen anti-vaccine folks ARE a real threat to health and safety of the general population (not to mention themselves and their children)…

THEN illegal aliens (in the degree that they dont have/get the required vacinations) are JUST as much a threat…not to mention all the other social negatives that vast numbers of illegal aliens may or may not bring…

Blll

[Cat_Whisperer]

I think the point about illegal aliens is completely moot. The US government has been attempting to stop illegal immigration for quite a while now, with limited success. You can say illegals shouldn’t be allowed in all you want, but unless you have some fabulous new plan up your sleeve, they will continue to thwart attempts to stop them just like they have been doing.

The idea of Muslims refusing vaccinations gives me chills (the same as any group refusing them does). I don’t want to catch new and improved polio because some other group in the world decided that eating olives would prevent them from catching a serious illness.

[Bridget_Burke]

@magellan01

I’ll have to disagree. I think that parents would be much more likely to vaccinate if they realized who is in the classrooms with them. It’s just not little Billy and Sally who just moved there from Maine. It’s people who have snuck in to the U.S. from countries where the likelihood of certain diseases is higher. And when you combine an increase in infectious disease with many people in close quarters, the risk goes up.

And just because we may not be able to stop every person infected from entering the U.S. doesn’t men that it isn’t wise to reduce that number as much as we can.

When my grandparents came over from Ireland, the immigration physical was the main hurdle they had to clear. Now, it’s much tougher to become a legal immigrant. Immigration lawyers are expensive!

I’m sure most “illegals” would rather show up at border checkpoints for entry physicals than risk their lives traipsing across the desert. I’m glad to see that you, too, think our immigration system needs a major overhaul–to make it easier to immigrate.

Now, back to the subject…

[maggenpye]

I have to say that a relative of mine entered another country perfectly legally - it was just that she lied about her repeated and prolonged contact with a TB infected cousin.

I only found out last year (it happened during the 50’s) - but the thing that got to me was that it was presented as a terrible thing that my relative had to lie for all those years, not that she had put thousands of people at risk of a disease that (at the time) was often fatal.

It was the same with the anti-vac mother I knew a few years back, complaining bitterly that it was such a hassle *for her *to look after all three of her children while they had whooping cough.

People will lie about their health status and they will twist reality around to make themselves the victim if their choices end badly.

@billfish78

(in the degree that they dont have/get the required vaccinations)

What does “in the degree” mean?
Because according to the WHO figures, Mexico’s immunisation rates are slightly better than the USA’s . Cuba’s aren’t much different, either. Please note that the last panel on each page is WHO’s independent estimate of actual coverage, not just the official figures.

Please feel free to provide a cite that all/ most/ a significant proportion of Mexico or Cuba’s illegal migrants to the US are from that small percentage that “don’t have/get the required vaccinations”.

[ManiacMan]

@Revenant Threshold

Where are you citing that from, MM? I’d like to have a look at the whole article if possible.

There are many blogs and other articles…just google his name with vaccinations.

[ManiacMan]

@LavenderBlue

In Nigeria’s arid north these days, it may as well be 2003 all over again. This month, news began to circulate that a recent polio outbreak in the predominantly Muslim region was triggered by a vaccine designed to eliminate it, and it is jarring already raw nerves in the historically volatile setting.

In the summer of 2003, Muslim clerics and disgruntled northern politicians banned polio vaccinations in the area, claiming that the drugs were a Western ploy to spread HIV and sterilize Muslim girls. The year-long mass boycott of the vaccine sparked a rash of new infections, and the virus jumped to about a dozen other countries — a devastating rollback for a polio eradication campaign that seemed finally on the verge of success.

:smack:

Absolutely irresponsible, disgusting, and criminal.

[billfish678]

@maggenpye

What does “in the degree” mean?
.

“In the degree” means that the problem is as big or small as the problem is depending on the prevalance of the issue that might cause said problem…and I don’t really know the fraction of illegals that have/maintain proper vacinations…thats why I put it in there.

What would be interesting to know is WHAT fraction of the population can remain unvacinated before:

One, the risk to themselves becomes significant.

Two, the risk to others because significant, with the others in this case being the folks in society who follow vacination guidelines but are now at risk again for whatever reason.

I would imagine both those curves would be non-linear. Starting at some low near zero number, then slowly increasing, then finally reaching a point where the risk increases dramatically.

Obviously, these curves would be different for different diseases.

If the number of anti-vacine folks is on the low side of the curve, it becomes more of a philosophical issue

Like at what level do you define the legal drinking limit when it comes to driving…or what distractions do you allow when driving, such as talking, radio, tv, cell phone, gameboys, putting on lipstick, or billboards along the highway.

If the number is close to or above the step part of the curve, then IMHO it becomes one of those “real problems” and the anti crowd needs some butt kicking.

As for the muslim story…what a bunch of wankers!

Oh, and does anybody remember this fun about childhood vacinations?

Lets do it at the public school. Lets line all the kids up in alphabetical order. Lets line them up in a LONG hallway. Have the crying tramatized shot recipents walk back past all the kids still in line waiting. “Dead kids walking/waiting”

Given that my last name is on the tail end of the alphabet, I got the short end of the stick on that particular childhood right of passage…
Blll

[eleanorigby]

@maggenpye

People will lie about their health status and they will twist reality around to make themselves the victim if their choices end badly.

This is absolutely true–as an RN, I can attest to it. People lie about their drug and alcohol habits, their sex partners, their compliance to their med regimes, their immunizations. Dr House is right: everybody lies(to some extent).

Your TB story reminded me of that guy a few years ago-the details are dim now, but he flew back from Italy (Greece? Switzerland?) knowing he had [insert contagious disease here], thereby exposing the entire plane. I cannot remember what he had, but it was all over the Dope (and the news).

IMO, the unvaccinated should not be allowed into school, period. Public health issues should override “religious” and personal reservations. Why not catch the illegals at that point? (I realize that there are many illegals who never see the inside of a school, but we have to start somewhere).

This thread is singularly depressing–what has happened to people? How did ignorance come back so horribly and intensely? Are the lessons of the past to be learned all over again? It sounds like complacency, coupled with the emergence of a middle class in some once third world countries has made for one hell of a mess. I don’t envy WHO their job these days.

[LavenderBlue]

@maggenpye

It was the same with the anti-vac mother I knew a few years back, complaining bitterly that it was such a hassle *for her *to look after all three of her children while they had whooping cough.

What’s worse is that the stupid cunt probably brought her infected children out in public and spread whooping cough god knows where. People like that should be marched to the nearest public square and loudly chided.

[Jayn_Newell]

@billfish678

Lets do it at the public school. Lets line all the kids up in alphabetical order. Lets line them up in a LONG hallway. Have the crying tramatized shot recipents walk back past all the kids still in line waiting. “Dead kids walking/waiting”

Ouch. Our high school shots were done by calling up a few kids at a time, so most of the trauma played out in private (in the bathrooms, from what I heard). I was lucky to be able to go through elementary without any, though if I’d been a year younger I would have gotten one in grade 4. I don’t know how well that would have played out.

[Flutterby]

@eleanorigby

Your TB story reminded me of that guy a few years ago-the details are dim now, but he flew back from Italy (Greece? Switzerland?) knowing he had [insert contagious disease here], thereby exposing the entire plane. I cannot remember what he had, but it was all over the Dope (and the news).

Didn’t he have some rare type of TB that was hard to cure?

[magellan01]

@Flutterby

Didn’t he have some rare type of TB that was hard to cure?

Is this the guy?

[eleanorigby]

@magellan01

Is this the guy?

Yes. I apologize for my atrocious memory. He was an ass to do what he did. But here’s the thing: how many of him are out there? I personally know of a woman who wanted to get out to their mountain house for Christmas, and flew with both her kids sick with chicken pox. One was scabby and the other one had just gotten the fever–contagious, both of them. She put her need to “just get to Aspen already” above any possible public health concern. This was prior to 911 (not that security stops kids with fevers anyway). I know she is not alone. Every time someone coughs when I’m on a plane, I think, oh great–between the dry (recirculated) air in here and that bozo, I’ll be lucky to not get sick this trip. And coughing is the least of it–airplanes are filthy. I’m all for exposing our immune systems to bacteria etc, but there is a limit.

[billfish678]

@Jayn_Newell

Ouch. Our high school shots were done by calling up a few kids at a time, so most of the trauma played out in private (in the bathrooms, from what I heard). I was lucky to be able to go through elementary without any, though if I’d been a year younger I would have gotten one in grade 4. I don’t know how well that would have played out.

For me this WAS in elementary…can’t recall if they did the group thing in high school or our parents took us down to the health clinic as needed…

Fortunately for me as wee youngster, I was probably better than most in regards to needles and blood. One “shot”, I forget which, nicked the crap outa ya, and often lead to minor scars and sigificant bleeding.

I pitty the poor 1st to 5th graders who where fairly blood/needle phobic…talk about a fun day school!

Blll

[Revenant_Threshold]

@ManiacMan

There are many blogs and other articles…just google his name with vaccinations.

I did so, but while there were a good many blogs and articles, I couldn’t seem to find the original version of the particular article you quoted. That’s why I asked where you’d got your quote from.

[ManiacMan]

@Revenant Threshold

I did so, but while there were a good many blogs and articles, I couldn’t seem to find the original version of the particular article you quoted. That’s why I asked where you’d got your quote from.

A MUSLIM doctors’ leader has provoked an outcry by urging British Muslims not to vaccinate their children against diseases such as measles, mumps and rubella because it is “un-Islamic”.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwat...ives/015007.php