We're Pretty Much Fucked, Aren't We?

[fessie]

AHunter3, that was really brilliant. I do agree with DanBlather that it was the spectre of the draft that finally finished it off, but you’re so right about the lack of real drama today.

Remember a few years ago, the media and police tried to coax some drama out of the World Bank (IIRC) protestors in Chicago; we were warned to stay away from the area, that “anything might happen”. Turned out to be a rather lethargic group, compared with the build-up.

Several years back, might’ve been 2000, we happened to be in Washington, D.C. during a fairly big protest march. I can’t remember what the impetus was, but it seemed like every Liberal cause under the sun had combined forces into a good-sized crowd (25,000? 50,000? I dunno, but it was big & plenty of police were there). So of course we joined in for a block or two. And then, back at our hotel, eagerly tuned into the nightly news to see the coverage - nada. Zip.

The thing is, people are so conditioned right now to fear “terrorists” and demand conformity, I hate to imagine what would happen to anyone who DID manage to catch TPTB off-guard, in a physical, dangerous way. We need something more like that brave Chinese protestor who stood in front of the tank. When everybody’s already hysterical, the quiet way stands out in contrast.

I recently happened to have a political conversation with an octogenarian in a doctor’s waiting room. We live in an extremely red state, so I tend to keep a low profile, but this guy was a WWII veteran and he reamed Bush up one side and down the other. Maybe we need to bring the kids & old people together somehow.

[Gary_Kumquat]

@elucidator

On that one, he has something of a point. An independent Kurdistan with oil revenue is very likely to have an eye towards uniting all the Kurdish people. Oil revenue means allies that will sell you weapons and train your people. For Turkey, that’s the “wake up screaming!” scenario.

Oh, it’s no doubt the sort of scenario Turkey dreads. And it’s equally a scary prospect for neocons. But world threatening? Nope, not even close.

Don’t confuse “dangerous to American economy” with “dangerous to whole world”. It’s the smug assumption that one is equivalent to the other that seems to be the basis for a lot of aggressive US policy.

[Tuckerfan]

@begbert2

How does the mere fact that our leadership wants to commit horrific heinous actions against some other country make us fucked? When we bombed Hiroshima, it didn’t fuck us up, it fucked them up.

Sure, we’re going to be associated wether we like it or not with the actions horrific heinous that our ledership commits, but that’s not quite the same as being the victims thereof. Arguably, we’re the lucky ones.

We’re not fucked. We’re the fuckers.

Given that TPTB were willing to fabricate, lie, torture, and put Americans in harms way in order to remake the world in their image, what makes you think they wouldn’t be willing to stir up a little shit here at home, if the Proles get too upity? Or what if the rest of the world decides that they’ve finally had enough of our shit and decide to put the squeeze on us? How long do you think your savings could hold out if countries like China slow down the rate at which they buy US government debt and we get slapped with a high rate of inflation, or the economy drastically slows down?

@elucidator

What terrifies the Bushiviks more than anything is the prospect of having all thier lies exposed. What we’ve seen so far is enough to gag a maggot. You can bet yer sweet patootie there’s more, and sunlight is the best disinfectant. Whisper the word “subpoena” in their ear and they crap thier trousers.

Except even many of the Republicans in office are putting daylight between themselves and Shrub, but they won’t take the extra step to bring him down, and I doubt the Dems will either.

@Will Rogers

I’m not a member of any organized political party, I’m a Democrat.

@Captain Amazing

“Oh, woe is me! The current administration, which will be out in two years, is making policy decisions I don’t like. Now I know how the victims of a genocidal tyrant feel!.” I mean, come on, grow up.

Except that this isn’t bitching about tax cuts, or welfare reform, or simple things like that. This is about a group of people who decided to remake the world as they saw fit, and damn the consequences. Does the fact that they’ve thrown our forces into a meat grinder and are totally unrepentent about the matter, even glossing over their fuck ups not bother you at all?

@EJsGirl

f you want to be even more depressed, you might pick up a copy of Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII (updated through 2003).

A rather sobering read… It reads like a reference guide- the countries are even listed in alpha order.

This administration? How about every administration since WWII? And probably well before that?

Although, yes, I agree that things are getting very, very bad.

I’m pretty familiar with the CIA’s actions, but in the past they had limited resources, and had to try and keep a somewhat low profile in their actions… Now, however, Rummy, et. al, have the entire US military at their beck and call, along with as much money as they want.

@David Simmons

I don’t think GW is a Hitler either. However, comparing exact action for action isn’t the point. It’s mindset. GW claims the right to do whatever is necessary, even if the laws are stretched out os all shape in the process, if he, and he alone, thinks it will protect what he thinks is national security.

That sounds a lit like “I am the leader (fuhrer) and know what is best. Just be good little boys and girls behave as I say and I will take care of things.”

Well, Bush did say, “A dictatorship is okay, so long as I’m the dictator.”

@joemama24_98

Who, among our founding fathers, would have though it would be so hard?

Ben Franklin

@Ben Franklin at the Constitutional Convention

It’s a republic. If you can keep it.

[Duke_of_Rat]

@AHunter3

Marching around in ovals with a sign in the hot sunshine chanting “four legs good, two legs bad” or whatever the fuck is the chant du jour, that isn’t fun. No one cares. It has no impact. It entertains no one. It’s dead — move on.

I had never heard of Cindy Sheehan before she started protesting at Bush’s ranch. Now I could recognize her on the street. I bet a lot of people could. Why? Because she was out there protesting. Her protests brought a LOT of media attention in a very short while. She got noticed. Seems to me that’s an impact.

Her message trailed off when she went a little loony, but nobody jumped in to carry the torch, either. That’s how movements get started, but nobody cares enough about this one to get out there and actually do anything.

I think the posters who think that the anti-war sentiment is mainstream are the ones who get their dose of reality from a monitor. There are still many people who have never heard of Daily Kos. Sure, a lot of non-internet people might think that the US involvement in Iraq isn’t doing much good, a good dose of non-internet protest might be the flash point they need to make them angry.

[jjimm]

@Duke of Rat

I think the posters who think that the anti-war sentiment is mainstream are the ones who get their dose of reality from a monitor.

Unless they live outside the US.

[Captain_Amazing]

@clairobscur

I used to esteem you, and I must say I’m very dissapointed, in particular by the part of your post I quoted.

I’m sorry I’ve lost your esteem, especially because I’ve always respected you as a poster. But I really don’t know what to say. The people in Guantanamo are mostly Taliban and al-Qaeda people we captured when we invaded Afghanistan, right? Something has to be done with those people, but how do you try them in conventional courts? What do you try them for? Most of them haven’t committed any prosecutable crimes.

So do you send them back to Afghanistan where they’ll just take up arms against the US and Afghan governments again? That doesn’t seem the best option. So, you keep them there, detained, until the war in Afghanistan ends and they can be set free.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Tuckerfan

Except that this isn’t bitching about tax cuts, or welfare reform, or simple things like that. This is about a group of people who decided to remake the world as they saw fit, and damn the consequences. Does the fact that they’ve thrown our forces into a meat grinder and are totally unrepentent about the matter, even glossing over their fuck ups not bother you at all?

Of course it bothers me, but it doesn’t terrify me, though. It doesn’t make me think we’re headed toward some great national tyranny, just because these people are messing up an occupation.

[John_Mace]

@Captain Amazing

The people in Guantanamo are mostly Taliban and al-Qaeda people we captured when we invaded Afghanistan, right? Something has to be done with those people, but how do you try them in conventional courts? What do you try them for? Most of them haven’t committed any prosecutable crimes.

If they haven’t committed any prosecutable crimes, then how are they different from, well, you? And you’re jumping to the conclusion that they’re al-Qaeda simply based on the fact that they’ve been detained. Many of these guys were handed over by tribal leaders for bounties. That’s why we need a robust juducial process to try them-- we don’t know whether they are guilty or not, dangerous or not, or whatever. All we know in most cases is that they’ve been detained.

So do you send them back to Afghanistan where they’ll just take up arms against the US and Afghan governments again? That doesn’t seem the best option. So, you keep them there, detained, until the war in Afghanistan ends and they can be set free.

Look, if they’re outlaws in Afghanistan, let the Afghan gov’t take care of them. But most of these guys are not from Afghanistan, so it’s not that simple.

[John_Mace]

@DanBlather

I was at the Vietnam demonstrations, including the one that drew 400,000 people in DC. As much as they felt good, I don’t think it’s what ended the war. The voters just saw a bunch of long hairs an didn’t pay attention to what they said. I think it was the threat of the draft that turned things around. At some point parents were no longer willing to send there kids to die. That was even more true when college deferments ended and the elite knew that their kids were in danger as well.

I don’t think that has happened yet for Iraq. The elite don’t see their kids going off and dieing and the patriots in the heartland still see the Iraq war as tied to TWOT. Once that shifts its all over for W and the pubs. Vietnam was a mistake, but it was not the great deceit that the Iraq war is.

That’s exactly right. There was a nexus of three big issues that energized students to protest like there was no tomorrow: 1) the Vietnam war, 2) the draft, and 3) the voting age. The Iraq war, horrible as it is, simply isn’t of the magnitude that the Vietnam war was nor does it have comparably aligned issues like #2 and #3 to help drive the protest cycle. The one aspect about the Iraq war which makes it a bigger issue than Vietnam is the (lack of) potential it has to harm the security of the US. There was little cause for alarm in the 60s that communist terrorists from Southeast Asia were going to fly planes in the buildings in the US or otherwise commit acts of terror on US soil.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Shayna

Bullshit. Bull SHIT. Expressing my abject fear created by the actions of this arrogant, law-breaking, torture-endorsing, prisoner-hiding, lying, war-mongering, power-hungry administration has nothing whatsofucking ever to do with “trivializing the Nazis.” ESPECIALLY as a Jew, I deeply resent that implication. The fact that people didn’t speak out against Hitler’s regime before it became a living fucking nightmare is EXACTLY the kind of mistake I never, ever want to see repeated, which is why I think it’s vitally important that we stop this administration before they go too fucking far.

I’m not making any implications, I’m telling you straight out, you’re trivializing the Nazis, and you can resent that or not resent it as you wish. You’re making the claim that this administration is trying to grab absolute power, and that’s just irrational paranoia.

Look, this isn’t me defending the Bush administration, unless merely saying “I don’t think Bush wants to set up a totalitarian dictatorship and take over the world”, which you’ve implied he wants to do, is defending it. I’ve voted against the guy twice, and will be glad to see him gone. But you’re being illogical, carried away by your “abject fear”, and you should really try to stop being afraid and look at the whole situation rationally. This is especially true if you want to take actions protesting or opposing the administration’s actions, because so long as you let yourself be guided by abject fear, you’ll never be able to put injustices int proportion, and you’ll come across as a kook.

[Guinastasia]

@AHunter3

What part of “recently in the US” do you fail to understand?

Look, demonstrations and marches were spectacular in the 1960s because people hadn’t done that before (or not recently in the US) and the powers being confronted didn’t know what those folks might do next.

The civil rights demonstrations began in the 1950s, IIRC. And plenty of people in power were old enough to remember the women’s suffrage movement, as well as various union demonstrations and what not.

The only difference, though, I will grant you, is that perhaps now we had television-people didn’t just hear about these things, or read about them and see pictures-they could see it happening, sometimes on LIVE tv.

So I don’t think the demonstrations of the sixties were necessarily anything new, nor that those in power were helpless as to what to do.

HOWEVER, I don’t think we’re seeing people getting as angry today-we’re a lot more jaded now, plus we don’t have the draft-I think that played a large role. And no, they didn’t have a September 11, but there was also the Cold War, the civil rights movement, the counter culture, the threat of the Soviets, the assassination of JFK, etc. I think people too say, “Oh, well, we won’t have another Vietnam-we know better now!” People take it for granted that everything will turn out all right.

Now, that being said, I don’t think the comparison to Nazi Germany is exact, here, and I could find a better one-I think that Bush and company are trying to start another “Cold War” era-only this time the boogieman is “Terrorism” rather than “Communism.” Our nation committed plenty of despicable acts in the name of “fighting communism”, and I totally see us doing the same in this “War on Terror”.

Hell, Saddam himself was our ally in the “War on Communism”, wasn’t he? That photo of Rummy shaking his hand?

I don’t see Bush going the way of Hitler-but I do see him ending up another Nixon. A lot of his cabinet members are Reagan-retreads-and were around during Iran-Contra and the shit we pulled in Nicaragua. History repeating itself?

[Shayna]

@Captain Amazing

I’m not making any implications, I’m telling you straight out, you’re trivializing the Nazis,

No I’m bloody well not. Repeating your false portrayal of my statements over and over doesn’t make it so. There’s nothing trivial about the Nazis and how they murdered 12 million people and terrorized hundreds of millions more all over the world. Noting some of the frightening similarities between some of the actions of this administration and Hitler’s isn’t even in the same ballpark as “trivializing the Nazis.”

You’re making the claim that this administration is trying to grab absolute power, and that’s just irrational paranoia.

First of all, I never said they were trying to grab “absoulte” power. But did you READ the OP or the link provided by jjimm in post #4 that I was replying to in the first place? (bolding mine)

@PNAC Statement of Principles

We [Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz] aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.

@Article from the OP

the Project for a New American Century crowd. That’s the group made up of Bush Faction heavy hitters – Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Elliot Abrams, Brother Jeb and others – who in September 2000 laid out the blueprint that George W. followed faithfully once he acquired the presidency.

This plan – long pre-dating 9/11 – included astronomical hikes in the military budget; invading Iraq and establishing a “permanent role” for a "substantial American force presence in the Gulf;" planting a "worldwide network of forward operating bases;" gutting arms control treaties; and making “regime change” a primary focus of American policy. The PNAC plan did note that it could take decades to get the American people to accept these “revolutionary” changes; unless, of course, the United States was struck by “some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.”

I don’t want my government taking it upon themselves to do this shit!! It is not our place to overthrow governments we don’t like! Especially when doing so sets off a chain of events like what’s been happening to the Afghani and Iraqi people for 3 fucking years. 45,000 dead, and counting. Civil war breaking out. Chaos and mayhem. Increased terrorist recruitment. Secret prisons. Torture. Indefinite detention without legal representation.

That’s not who we are, dammit!!!

@Captain Amazing

Look, this isn’t me defending the Bush administration, unless merely saying “I don’t think Bush wants to set up a totalitarian dictatorship and take over the world”, which you’ve implied he wants to do, is defending it. I’ve voted against the guy twice, and will be glad to see him gone. But you’re being illogical, carried away by your “abject fear”, and you should really try to stop being afraid and look at the whole situation rationally. This is especially true if you want to take actions protesting or opposing the administration’s actions, because so long as you let yourself be guided by abject fear, you’ll never be able to put injustices int proportion, and you’ll come across as a kook.

I’m hardly being “carried away” by anything, so quit mischaracterizing me. But the moment we stop being afraid of ruthless, power-hungry men who secretly plan wars against sovereign nations under completely false pretenses, who secretly round people up and put them in secret prisons under secret conditions – especially when we already know that they are capable of authorizing and/or condoning despicable, inhumane practices and conditions – that’s when we’ve utterly failed as as human beings. That these things don’t frighten you is a big part of what makes me so angry.

“Evil happens when good men do nothing.”

:mad:

[David_Simmons]

@Captain Amazing

I’m not making any implications, I’m telling you straight out, you’re trivializing the Nazis, and you can resent that or not resent it as you wish. You’re making the claim that this administration is trying to grab absolute power, and that’s just irrational paranoia.

Look, this isn’t me defending the Bush administration, unless merely saying “I don’t think Bush wants to set up a totalitarian dictatorship and take over the world”, which you’ve implied he wants to do, is defending it.

Actually Hitler didn’t want to “take over the world.” All he wanted was a little “living room” for Germans and the unity of all German speaking people.

All GW wants is “national security” and he is willing to go to any lengths to get it. I don’t think he is anywhere near getting close to applying his illegal methods to US citizens, but precedents have been set for use by a future president as to the treatment of people. If non-citizens can be denied due process, the ability to confront witnesses, and to know the evidence against them etc. then everyone’s rights jeopardiezed. And, of course, Hitler fixed it so that Jews weren’t considered “real Germans” which is an extreme form of, Those who criticize our policies are helping the terrorists, i.e. boving aid and comfort to the enemy.

I never, ever even imagined that we would have an Attorney and other high feceral officials defending terrorism and word-smithing definitions so as to to be able to torture without calling it torture.

You really have to look past the end of your nose. Everything that happens now is mere prologue which can be built upon by even more evil people in the future. As 1933 Germany illustrated so clearly, it can happen overnight if people can be manipulated by fear mongering about “them” and “them” can be their fellow citizens just as easily as some Middle Eastern looking individual.

And I am convinced that GW would be perfectly at home as either the leader or an entusiastic supporter of the leader in a totalitarian regime.

[Tuckerfan]

@Captain Amazing

Of course it bothers me, but it doesn’t terrify me, though. It doesn’t make me think we’re headed toward some great national tyranny, just because these people are messing up an occupation.

“Messing up an occupation” is when you piss off the locals because you trampled on the tulips, what we’ve done is far, far, far worse than that. We went in with an, “Aw, fuck it.” attitude and are reaping the whirlwind because of it.

[elucidator]

@David Simmons

…And I am convinced that GW would be perfectly at home as either the leader or an entusiastic supporter of the leader in a totalitarian regime.

Oh, what bitter slander of The Leader! You make it sound permanent! No such thing! The President, as supported by the authoritarian…authoritative!, excuse…legal and Constitutional scholar Mr. John Yoo…envisions a temporary state where the Executive branch assumes more control and gravity than would be true in peacetime. Naturally, the very instant the War on Terr is concluded, the President will yield such power. History abounds with examples of men who yielded dictatorial powers willingly when the conditions that made them necessary have been resolved. There’s Cincinattus, for instance. And then there’s…a whole bunch more! Too many to list here, but lots and lots! So don’t give me any of that “cite!” shite! If you really loved freedom, you wouldn’t need a cite!

So long as we don’t hand such powers to a scoundrel or a fool, the Republic is pefectly safe!

[Captain_Amazing]

@Shayna

But did you READ the OP or the link provided by jjimm in post #4 that I was replying to in the first place? (bolding mine)

I’ve read the PNAC statement of principles, yes. But I do think you’re really badly mischaracterizing it. And, you know, we’ve been overthrowing governments we don’t like since at least the middle of the 19th century, so it really is who we are and what we do.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Tuckerfan

“Messing up an occupation” is when you piss off the locals because you trampled on the tulips, what we’ve done is far, far, far worse than that. We went in with an, “Aw, fuck it.” attitude and are reaping the whirlwind because of it.

You’re right. Our occupation planning was extremely short sighted so as to be nonexistant, and the next time we occupy a country, we definately need to do better. I’m not disagreeing with you there

[elucidator]

@Captain Amazing

… and the next time we occupy a country, we definately need to do better. I’m not disagreeing with you there

Emphasis ruefully added

Don’t think you’re quite getting the message here, Cap’n.

[Captain_Amazing]

@elucidator

Emphasis ruefully added

Don’t think you’re quite getting the message here, Cap’n.

Eh, I give up.

[Der_Trihs]

@Captain Amazing

And, you know, we’ve been overthrowing governments we don’t like since at least the middle of the 19th century, so it really is who we are and what we do.

Thank you for admitting that America = Thugs, although I doubt you meant to.