[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
I’ve read the PNAC statement of principles, yes. But I do think you’re really badly mischaracterizing it. And, you know, we’ve been overthrowing governments we don’t like since at least the middle of the 19th century, so it really is who we are and what we do.
[/QUOTE]
We’ve been torturing people a lot longer than that - why bother with all the legal tapdancing?
-Joe
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Oh, what bitter slander of The Leader! You make it sound permanent! No such thing! The President, as supported by the authoritarian…authoritative!, excuse…legal and Constitutional scholar Mr. John Yoo…envisions a temporary state where the Executive branch assumes more control and gravity than would be true in peacetime. Naturally, the very instant the War on Terr is concluded, the President will yield such power. History abounds with examples of men who yielded dictatorial powers willingly when the conditions that made them necessary have been resolved. There’s Cincinattus, for instance. And then there’s…a whole bunch more! Too many to list here, but lots and lots! So don’t give me any of that “cite!” shite! If you really loved freedom, you wouldn’t need a cite!
So long as we don’t hand such powers to a scoundrel or a fool, the Republic is pefectly safe!
[/QUOTE]
Now that you have explained it so clearly the scales have fallen from my eyes. How could I have been so misguided?
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
I’ve read the PNAC statement of principles, yes. But I do think you’re really badly mischaracterizing it. And, you know, we’ve been overthrowing governments we don’t like since at least the middle of the 19th century, so it really is who we are and what we do.
[/QUOTE]
Fucking hurry up, then! :mad:
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan]
Given that TPTB were willing to fabricate, lie, torture, and put Americans in harms way in order to remake the world in their image, what makes you think they wouldn’t be willing to stir up a little shit here at home, if the Proles get too upity?
[/QUOTE]
Easy: it would be contrary to their interests to do so. Something some of you seem to be forgetting is that, in spite of all the laws they’re breaking and heinous acts they’re instigating/perpetuationg, the Neo-Con men are still operating within the United States. All hyperbole aside, the US consitution remains largely intact and if these guys piss off their constituency, then they will vanish as the end of their terms, as per normal constitutional procedure. I do not believe for a moment that they will ever gain enough control to edit elections out of the constitution, or that they would be able to fake the elections in the face of overwhelming opposition.
Given all that, the last thing these guys will do is ‘stir up shit’ at home, to the tune you’re implying: ‘willing to fabricate, lie, torture, and put Americans in harms way […] if the proles get too uppity’. What’s this supposed to mean? If it is proven that the Neo-Con men are attacking Americans, then they are political corpses.
Y’see, Americans in general don’t give a shit what happens to other people. They only care about what happens to themselves and their little neighborhood friends. This has been demonstrably true since at least WWII, so nobody need bother to protest. As long as we’re fat and happy, we don’t care who is torturing or slaughtering some foreigner. (‘They’re taking all the jobs anyway! Damn foreigners!’)
But the minute that anybody other than the loonies believes that the neocons are causing major disasters on US soil, the shit will hit the fan. Their constituency will evaporate; the remaining repubs will abandon them like rats from a sinking ship, and we’ll see impeachments and arrests by the truckload.
Call them stupid, call them evil, (I just call them self-serving, myself), but regardless these guys have managed to keep the mainstream placid for some five-six years now. That placidity is their lifeblood; they’re not going to stick a knife in it.
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan]
Or what if the rest of the world decides that they’ve finally had enough of our shit and decide to put the squeeze on us? How long do you think your savings could hold out if countries like China slow down the rate at which they buy US government debt and we get slapped with a high rate of inflation, or the economy drastically slows down?
[/QUOTE]
You think China is going to get on our backs over waging a little war and torturing a few (non-chinese) prisoners? When this this become likely?
I dont see a plausible threat in the threat of economic sanctions against the US. Feel free to convince me, cause I’m just not seeing it. Actually I don’t even see it plausible that such things would occur. Until then, I won’t worry.
[QUOTE=begbert2]
Easy: it would be contrary to their interests to do so. Something some of you seem to be forgetting is that, in spite of all the laws they’re breaking and heinous acts they’re instigating/perpetuationg, the Neo-Con men are still operating within the United States. All hyperbole aside, the US consitution remains largely intact and if these guys piss off their constituency, then they will vanish as the end of their terms, as per normal constitutional procedure. I do not believe for a moment that they will ever gain enough control to edit elections out of the constitution, or that they would be able to fake the elections in the face of overwhelming opposition.
[/quote]
I can’t tell how relieved I am to hear that the constitution is “largely intact.” Sure, they will be at the end of their terms if … However, by their actions they will have advanced the ratchet from liberty toward government control by one pawl. Since the precedent exists for things like holding non-citizens in Guantanamo Bay with no charges filed and no legal representation which is further than anyone could go in the past, the next president can go a little bit further.
Did you hear Cheney on Meet The Press? Have you heard GW on 9/11 still doggedly defending his actions? And all this despite the fact that the public has turned against their course and doesn’t think the invasion of Iraq was justified or a good idea.
You’ve got a good point here, except that the further infringements on rights will be justified on the ground that this case is unusual and “everything changed” just like this time.
I guess all that can be said is that there are those who see no danger until the cliff has alread been driven over.
No we are not on the verge of a dictatorship. But some steps have been taken in that direction. Do you want to wait until it takes a civil war to reverse things? You can’t sit on your rights. They must be protected at the first infringement because the last one is too late. Eternal vigilance and all that, y’know.
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
I can’t tell how relieved I am to hear that the constitution is “largely intact.” Sure, they will be at the end of their terms if … However, by their actions they will have advanced the ratchet from liberty toward government control by one pawl. Since the precedent exists for things like holding non-citizens in Guantanamo Bay with no charges filed and no legal representation which is further than anyone could go in the past, the next president can go a little bit further.
[/QUOTE]
You’re supposing the outraged populace would elect a man who would refuse to correct the wrongs that were done. Now, I can believe that; I think the Dems are as corrupt and self-serving as the Pubs. But, if one holds that position, who bother tossing out Bush?
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
Did you hear Cheney on Meet The Press? Have you heard GW on 9/11 still doggedly defending his actions? And all this despite the fact that the public has turned against their course and doesn’t think the invasion of Iraq was justified or a good idea.
[/QUOTE]
Nope. Nope. Have they?
It wouldn’t surprise me if the Neo-Con men defended their actions to their dying day. What’s your point with this?
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
You’ve got a good point here, except that the further infringements on rights will be justified on the ground that this case is unusual and “everything changed” just like this time.
[/QUOTE]
Again, what point electing a different guy if he won’t correct the problem?
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
I guess all that can be said is that there are those who see no danger until the cliff has alread been driven over.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, you can also say that there are those that don’t see the danger, because they think that the cliff in question is a figment of imagination. You do realize that the part I was reponding to here was total speculation, right?
[QUOTE=David Simmons]
No we are not on the verge of a dictatorship. But some steps have been taken in that direction. Do you want to wait until it takes a civil war to reverse things? You can’t sit on your rights. They must be protected at the first infringement because the last one is too late. Eternal vigilance and all that, y’know.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, yeah. But, how do I know the Dems will be any better, if we hand them unilateral control? I would expect any politician/political group to (ab)use such power. The mere fact that the Pubs actually did so does not detract from that position; it supports it. Given that, what’s next? Revolution? Picking your candidate based on least recent scandal? Pheh.
[QUOTE=begbert2]
You’re supposing the outraged populace would elect a man who would refuse to correct the wrongs that were done. Now, I can believe that; I think the Dems are as corrupt and self-serving as the Pubs. But, if one holds that position, who bother tossing out Bush?
Nope. Nope. Have they?
[/quote]
The people who respond to polls seems to have done so.
I was under the impression that you thought the “ins” would change their operation once they lost the public. If that wasn’t what you meant then I’m sorry.
What I get from this is that you believe that no matter who is elected they are crooked or incompetant. In that case why engage in a pointless discussion?
You know, come to think of it, there’s another problem with, “Don’t ever compare so and so to the Nazis, because that trivializes the Nazis and what they did!”
Maybe, just maybe, but making the Nazis to be the end all and be all of evil, the most inhuman monsters ever, we ARE trivializing them, or at least, treating the Nazis as if they were some unique phenomenon, a freak accident of history. NOT that the Nazis weren’t incredibly evil but at the same time, what’s scariest is that they weren’t “monsters”, but that they were human beings, just like the rest of us. That we aren’t immune from becoming evil, or condoning evil-maybe not as bad as Hitler and co, but certainly it could happen again. That we DO need to look at what happened and why it happened, to keep it from repeating.
I hope no one will think I’m trying to soften the image of the Nazis by saying no, they weren’t monsters. Because that wasn’t my intent. Does that make sense?
Makes sense to me, Guin. I think that’s a realistic way of looking at it.
Not only does it make sense, Guin, but it seems to me that it helps explain why so many people vehemently reject any comparison to the Nazis.
If Hitler & Co. were indeed a unique phenomenon, then we (the generic “we”) don’t have to worry about becoming equally evil. We’re safe from falling to the same depths; no road we take will ever lead us to fascist oppression and wholesale murder.
But if the Nazis are regarded as fully human, as embodying in the extreme certain aspects of human behavior that are latent in all of us, what then? Then we have to confront the dismaying possibility that our choices could lead us along their path, perhaps very far along it. Not a thought to rest easy on one’s mind, especially when one is advancing along a road posted with “Nazis ahead!” warning signs.
Even a casual acquiantaince with history teaches us that unspeakable atrocities and vicious oppression have been the norm throughout human existence, and Americans have no special dispensation from the needs, fears, and desires that instigate such things. No matter how much we protest otherwise.
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
You know, come to think of it, there’s another problem with, “Don’t ever compare so and so to the Nazis, because that trivializes the Nazis and what they did!”
Maybe, just maybe, but making the Nazis to be the end all and be all of evil, the most inhuman monsters ever, we ARE trivializing them, or at least, treating the Nazis as if they were some unique phenomenon, a freak accident of history. NOT that the Nazis weren’t incredibly evil but at the same time, what’s scariest is that they weren’t “monsters”, but that they were human beings, just like the rest of us. That we aren’t immune from becoming evil, or condoning evil-maybe not as bad as Hitler and co, but certainly it could happen again. That we DO need to look at what happened and why it happened, to keep it from repeating.
I hope no one will think I’m trying to soften the image of the Nazis by saying no, they weren’t monsters. Because that wasn’t my intent. Does that make sense?
[/QUOTE]
Daniel Goldhagen’s book Hitler’s Willing Executioners is all about this very subject. Those who actually carried out the mechanics of the holocaust were just ordinary folk with a 9 to 5 job.
This phenomenon has been noted over and over again. Such as, for example, if a man in a white lab coat tells some people to give an electrical shock to those people over there for their own good many people will do it. Some behavior researchers refer to them as “authoritarian followers.” They will do almost anything that seeming authority tells them to do. There is quite a discussion of the effect and the confirming data in John W. Dean’s book Conservatives Without Consience.
I strongly disagree that we shouldn’t use Germany’s slide into internal terrorism as an example of what is possible. It was real easy and was done by using fear mongering, among other things, on the populace which was feeling unfairly abused by the outside world anyway. What was causing all their travails? Why the Jews, of course. Add in the anti-semitism that was common in the Western world and that was really all that was required.
I agree with you 100%. It is all too easy to frighten people into submitting to authority and that can’t be pointed out too often. One common comment that you hear on SDMB and elsewhere by the Bush apologists is that if you aren’t doing something wrong you have nothing to fear from such things as warrantless wiretaps or secret detention. Bullshit. One continual struggle of ordinary people is to prevent those in power from overreaching.
Excellent point – one thinks about concentration camps, one imagines barren plains and lonely outposts. I’ve seen Dachau, in person. It’s right in the middle of an ordinary neighborhood.
That’s why it’s so frightening.
[QUOTE=Shayna]
“Evil happens when good men do nothing.”
:mad:
[/QUOTE]
Now, Shayna, Captain Amazing isn’t doing nothing. He’s doing everything he possibly can to justify and explain away and generally keep us from being outraged by the acts of evil men. That’s hardly nothing!
[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Now, Shayna, Captain Amazing isn’t doing nothing. He’s doing everything he possibly can to justify and explain away and generally keep us from being outraged by the acts of evil men. That’s hardly nothing!
[/QUOTE]
Ayuh. Shore is sumpin’, innit?
[QUOTE=elucidator]
There is no greater testimonial to the value of democracy than the opportunity before us. We can start rebuilding. Let them all, friends and enemies, see what is possible, what can be done. To do that, we simply must…must… take the House this fall. The Senate, if possible, but we have to have some base to operate.
What terrifies the Bushiviks more than anything is the prospect of having all thier lies exposed. What we’ve seen so far is enough to gag a maggot. You can bet yer sweet patootie there’s more, and sunlight is the best disinfectant. Whisper the word “subpoena” in their ear and they crap thier trousers.
The real work, the heavy lifting isn’t on “my” side of the political debate. The left is pretty much on board. We need the honest conservatives, the Barry Goldwaters of tomorrow. I haven’t the least smidgeon of doubt if he were with us, he would be with us.
“'Luc, you commie bastard, would you mind pushing my wheelchair towards the barricades?”
“It would be an honor. Sir.”
Those that won’t join from honor and patriotism can be frightened, they will demonstrate the behavior of rodents confronted with a nautical emergency. Talk to everyone you know. Talk to people you don’t know. Especially talk to people who don’t vote. America needs them, more than ever before.
Because unless there is a massive repudiation, a complete massacre…the Bushiviks will declare victory. If they hold onto power by the slimmest of margins, they will declare that to be an unshakeable mandate, an unalloyed endorsement. We must not permit this. There are any number of ways to serve your country. This the most urgent, this is what must be done. We can go back to squabbling about the details later. Patriotism demands nothing less. If the people lead, the leaders will follow or perish, therein lies the glory of democracy.
Its gonna get ugly. Its gonna be “smear, fear, and queer”. Don’t flinch, and bite down, bite down to the bone!
Sic 'em!
[/QUOTE]
You’re assuming of course, that the Dems won’t just sit on their fat asses once they take the House, sensing no mandate from their supporters.
A vast majority of Dems are moderate right-wingers now. Remember, it wasn’t just Republicans who voted for war powers. I simply don’t think the Dems have it in them any more.
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
You know, come to think of it, there’s another problem with, “Don’t ever compare so and so to the Nazis, because that trivializes the Nazis and what they did!”
Maybe, just maybe, but making the Nazis to be the end all and be all of evil, the most inhuman monsters ever, we ARE trivializing them, or at least, treating the Nazis as if they were some unique phenomenon, a freak accident of history. NOT that the Nazis weren’t incredibly evil but at the same time, what’s scariest is that they weren’t “monsters”, but that they were human beings, just like the rest of us. That we aren’t immune from becoming evil, or condoning evil-maybe not as bad as Hitler and co, but certainly it could happen again. That we DO need to look at what happened and why it happened, to keep it from repeating.
I hope no one will think I’m trying to soften the image of the Nazis by saying no, they weren’t monsters. Because that wasn’t my intent. Does that make sense?
[/QUOTE]
I have some trepidation posting this in this thread, but will go ahead. I hear what you’re saying, Guin, and will add this: The settling of the US by Europeans also involved a horrible program of genocide and isolation of populations with Native Americans, as well as the atrocious program of enslavement of Africans to build the country. We, hopefully, have made great progress beyond that now, but that exploitation is part of our history. As you say, we always need to face that, and prevent it from ever happening again
[QUOTE=elelle]
I have some trepidation posting this in this thread, but will go ahead. I hear what you’re saying, Guin, and will add this: The settling of the US by Europeans also involved a horrible program of genocide and isolation of populations with Native Americans, as well as the atrocious program of enslavement of Africans to build the country. We, hopefully, have made great progress beyond that now, but that exploitation is part of our history. As you say, we always need to face that, and prevent it from ever happening again
[/QUOTE]
I can remember when we got involved in Kosovo people saying, “What are we complaining about? We did the same thing ourselves, and look how great we are! We should let them do it.” Nevermind that one of the things that makes (or should I say “made”?) us a great nation is that we can acknowledge our flawed history and work to rise above it. Nor were we quite as systematic in our atrocities as certain other folks have been. (Though I suppose if someone had educated Andy Jackson in industrial killing operations, he’d have gone for it.)
[QUOTE=scotandrsn]
You’re assuming of course, that the Dems won’t just sit on their fat asses once they take the House, sensing no mandate from their supporters.
A vast majority of Dems are moderate right-wingers now. Remember, it wasn’t just Republicans who voted for war powers. I simply don’t think the Dems have it in them any more.
[/QUOTE]
Sadly, I think you have a point. I read an article yesterday that said the majority of Dems were willing to sit aside and let the Pubbies fight over the President’s attempt to get torture and non-military courts authorized via Dubya’s new legislative initiative.
Come ON, you stupid git Dems!!! This is torture and illegal imprisonment the Prez is proposing! Let him call you soft on terrorism! If most Americans are OK with torture and illegal imprisonment, there’s no point in being any fucking thing but a goddam fascist anyway! Show some damn spine!
[QUOTE=scotandrsn]
You’re assuming of course, that the Dems won’t just sit on their fat asses once they take the House, sensing no mandate from their supporters.
[/quote]
They won’t be able to do all that much with just one house of Congress, but you can bet your bootie that they’ll consider a one vote majoirty to be a mandate.
Vast majoirty? No way.
That’s not necessarily a bad political strategy. I think they can trust McCain (and Graham) to hammer out an acceptable bill, so why not let the Pubbies air their dirty laundry in public? Looks like Bush is going to lose this one, although I guess he can veto the bill if he wants. And that would be really bad for the Pubbies!
[QUOTE=John Mace]
They won’t be able to do all that much with just one house of Congress, but you can bet your bootie that they’ll consider a one vote majoirty to be a mandate…
[/quote]
Unlike out beloved Leader, who operates entirely based on the massive public support he enjoys. Remember the first election, which he won by a slim negative plurality? How he reflected realisticly on that, and promised to govern from the center. Niether do I.
Signing statement. “This law says what I want it to say, regardless of what it might say. So there.”