Westworld S3 (show spoilers as it airs)

Cafe Society
161

I’m glad folks are enjoying this show. But personally I’m really disappointed with this third season. After the third episode I’m probably going to let this slip off my radar.

I liked the first season quite a bit. The second to an extent, although I started to feel that the main selling point of the show started to be the complexities of the plot. Trying to keep up started to feel more like a chore than entertainment. I had a similar reaction to Game of Thrones where my interest petered out a season or two in.

But this third season, oh man. The filmmaking is shockingly amateurish compared to other HBO productions. The scene transitions are so jarring. An establishing shot followed by a scene with Very Serious menacing unnatural dialogue, a cut to the next unrelated establishing shot and scene with Very Serious dialog, etc., etc. With some obligatory action scenes thrown in. Tonally I can’t tell these characters apart, they’re dominated by overly serious (frankly to the point of parody) monotone monologues. Which I found to be the dialog equivalent of failing the “show, don’t tell” test. And on that note, what’s with the ridiculous flashback reenactments of what the characters just said? After she tells him that she knows he comes back to the pier to think about suicide do we really need a flashback to a scene where he … comes back to the pier to think about suicide? A better script would just need to show us the impact of that revelation on the character (and consequently the truth of the statement).

It really does feel like they’re heading hard and fast into my season two complaint: the complexity of the plot is everything, and every other aspect of filmmaking (relatable characters, believable dialog and motivations, emotional and scene continuity, etc.) are thrown out of the window. It’s like they’ve broken down the filmmaking into distinct tasks (scenes), each with a specific plot-moving goal, and then outsourced them to different individuals who hadn’t read the entire script or character profiles. Like that stupid scene with child predator. So astonishingly contrived, unbelievable, and obviously there to make a specific plot point about her being a predator, no matter how much of a non sequitur it was otherwise.

I can’t even get behind the look of this season. Little details like the self driving cars look like cheap stock “future car” props I’ve seen a hundred times before. It’s especially jarring because we’re meant to believe they’re the versions used by the opulent super wealthy. The comparison to Blade Runner is interesting, because the contrast between these cars and the BR2049 executive flying cars is striking: they’re so much better realized, “solid”, and convincing in BR2049. They looked like the future equivalent of a Bentley. Westworld would have us believe the super wealthy are driving around in the future equivalent of a Kia with the fake leather option.

Wow, I’m more down on this than I initially thought I’d be. Again, I’m glad people are getting enjoyment out of this show. But personally I’m finding it terribly uninspired. In a way I’m grateful, because it’s kind of clarified my thinking about what I like about shows I feel get this stuff right (e.g. Better Call Saul or Breaking Bad where the details matter, pay off later, the continuity and character development flows well, and they don’t feel the need to spell out the obvious).

162

Yeah, the idea of there being a Westworld is cool, and the same with the other "worlds’ but now that’s gone. So the cool thing, the Westworld thing- is gone. It’s like His Dark Materials, where they had all those cool, nifty things in the first book (and movie and now series) with the Deamons, armored bears, dirigibles, flying witches , and what not- then drop all the cool stuff and go directly to preaching that Christianity is evil.

163

Thank you, particularly the last two posters. I was debating whether to re-subscribe to HBO Now to watch season 3. I felt burned by season 2, but really, really loved season 1 (though not particularly a fan of the “reveal”). Season 3 sounds like it has 2’s poor plotting but without 1’s charm of the WW environment/concept.

164

Eh, it depends on what you’re looking for. I’m enjoying this season more than 2. I thought 2 was completely convoluted, and the out-of-sequence scenes served only to confuse instead of building toward some reveal. So far, this season makes more sense and character motivations are clearer. And Aaron Paul is a great addition to the cast.

165

I’ve complained before about futurey-looking technologies that nobody would actually use, and this counts. Would anyone want their entire car doors to be a sheet of flat Gorilla Glass/Prosimian Plastic/whatever? Okay, a few exhibitionists. But most people?

166

People wouldn’t want their own car doors to be see through. But I bet cops would love the idea. In a surveillance state, I have no problem believing in cars like this.

167

I agree with season two being convoluted. Season three does seem more linear and easier to follow so far, but gives me this vibe that they’re just setting it up for some Wild and Crazy Convolutions later on. I’m usually willing to give shows some slack in their pilot, where there’s some setup work that makes things a bit more clunky. But other shows work around that better, and we’re three episodes in. I understand the character’s motivations not because they’re engaging or relatable, but because they’re spelled out to me in an unnatural monologue. Honestly, it feels one step away from just having the characters turn to camera and introduce themselves.

168

Yes. It’s a common problem in low budget futuristic shows. I recall Star Trek TNG being guilty of this quite often: technology that they had to make look different because “future”, but clearly wasn’t practical anymore. And high budget shows that lack imagination, apparently.

It’s not just that the door is impractical, slow to open, and doesn’t afford any privacy (given that video surveillance is everywhere I doubt they’re need to even push pack against the rich and famous not wanting pedestrians staring at them). It’s just so blatantly a cheap set: it’s clearly not even watertight!

And that ambulance! What’s with those ridiculous toy wheels with no clearance? God help you if you live on the other side of a speed bump from the hospital, because that thing isn’t coming for you. And was it actually in a “Recalculating …” loop because she wasn’t human? Please tell me I made that up …

This is all a thoughtless/silly person’s view of what the future might look like, with no grounding in even basic practically. It’s immensely distracting to me. It doesn’t cost a lot to get right either. You need very minimal cues that you’re not living in the present. A coherent aesthetic is enough, and it needs to look lived in. I’m thinking of Her in particular as a counter point, and BR2049 certainly counts as the high budget but done right counterexample.

169

There is present-day technology that allows a glass panel to go from transparent to opaque (using a variation on LCD). Perhaps they have something like that?

170

Yes. The first season (and some of the second) were interesting because it’s a neat concept to bring to the screen. And I thought they explored some of the consequences and the gradually growing awareness of the synthetic people relatively well. My only complaint is that it sometimes smelled a bit like a Star Trek TNG holodeck episode. But that’s a minor complaint, and for the most part I thought they handled the dynamics of the park quite well. It was a unique thing to see and explore on television.

But there’s nothing unique about the third season. A dystopian near future society with an underdog against an evil corporate force up to no good is very well trodden territory. Now that we’ve left what made Westworld interesting behind, I’m struggling to see what this show is bringing to the table that is new or better done.

171

That depends whether something has to be new or better in order for it to be enjoyable. Myself, if it’s a decent story in a genre I like, I’ll watch it.

172

That’s fair. I guess my personal opinion is that this is not new and it is worse than other things I’ve seen before. So I’d be better off rewatching something else :wink:

For me there’s an element of being spoilt by other first rate productions. Shows that are real works of art from a cinematography and story telling perspective. Like a couple of decades ago I don’t think I could have any complaints about Westworld. But now … I can’t go back from the clever details in a Better Call Saul episode that make me wonder and try anticipate what the heck Mike is up to … or the incredible performances that so seamlessly broadcast what a character is going through and what their motivations are.

There’s nothing incompetent about this season of Westworld. I’m sure everyone involved passed their respective courses at film school. There’s no boom mikes hanging in the frame. But the story telling and filmmaking is so lackluster and lacking in creativity or dynamism to me. It’s a real drop in quality that I find quite astonishing.

173

Yes, this, for me, too.

I am enjoying the season so far better than season 2.

Things like the ground clearance on ambulances do not bother me in the slightest. That’s “her knees are too sharp” territory, IMO.

174

I’m still digging the show, and will definitely keep watching.

I suspect it is Teddy inside FakeCharlotte, but agree it could be someone else.

Chilling scenes when the little boy senses FakeCharlotte isn’t actually his mom, and when she confronts (“You’re not the only predator here”) and kills the suspected child molester. Also an interesting, and discouraging, environmental note: there are no more live elephants.

I liked the bit with the repeated highpitched voicemail tones that must be combined to break a code and be put through by phone.

The transcript of young Caleb’s talk with the waitress in the diner mentioned that it was “Redacted under H.R. 571 - DPIPA.” A reference to an information privacy act like this one, maybe?: Biometric Information Privacy Act - Wikipedia. What would “DP” refer to, then - District of Panem?

Chilling to see Caleb having been determined (by Rehoboam, presumably) to be “unfit for social promotion and reproduction,” as his file noted.

The battle lines of hosts vs. humans are now pretty clear, but I suspect the show will also present a choice between a human society “guided” by AI like Rehoboam to be safer and more peaceful and productive, and one in which human self-determination is respected, but perhaps at the cost of more crime, inequality, social tensions, war, etc. And that can’t be what Dolores ultimately would want… can it?

I wondered about that. Seemed quite odd - it came clanking up and then was easily knocked off the ledge by the bearded bad guy. WTF?

Interestingly, the actor who played her ex once played a robot himself (Almost Human (TV series) - Wikipedia). He’s now on Stumptown as a Portland police detective.

Noice!

A Stanislaw Lem reference, for those who (like me) were wondering: The Cyberiad - Wikipedia

175

I agree with all this.

My guess as to why the show is unsatisfying to some of us: Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy are not paying close attention to world-building or even to the production itself, resulting in muddy direction and writing (among other infelicities). I believe they are focused on the message of the show, and regrettably careless of everything else.

And my belief about what the message of the show actually is, is rooted in my observation of certain right-wing themes Nolan’s work has included. Again, in my opinion, of course. In the case of Westworld, I believe the over-arching message is: the most dangerous people in the world are the victimized; keep them under careful control. Westworld is a cautionary tale for the 1%. Victimize away—just be sure you don’t let your victims have any chance to get back at you.

This is a worldview that includes no sympathy for the victimized. It sees those who’ve been mistreated as the real monsters.

I would expect to get plenty of push-back on this opinion. But I would bet that by the last episode, this message will have become very clear.

In re fake-Charlotte: if it’s not Teddy, then surely it’s Dolores’s “father.” Who else besides those two was she close to? I suppose Ford—and a reveal that it’s Ford (or at least a recording of his mind) would provide the sort of shock this show tends to go for. But it would not make much sense. (Same for making fake-Charlotte actually be a recording of William–shocking and not making sense.)

176

Haven’t seen tonight’s episode yet.

“Liberty must not be denied to any being capable of asking for it.” - Asimov

An interesting issue in the alien first-contact movie Arrival, too.

Agreed. Dolores doesn’t see things that way, though.

See also: The Measure Of A Man (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom

Perhaps the ultra-wealthy also like to flaunt themselves as they ride in the society of that time.

177

Hm? They pretty much straight up explicitly said it was copies of Dolores, at least in the most recent episode. As for William, the question is if the original William is even still around/alive or if it is all digital copies of him at this point.

178

Speaking of bad writing, though, the encryption key degrades after exposure to oxygen? Seriously? And when was it exposed, since she drew blood directly from the poor guy’s neck? And why would it rapidly degrade in one guy’s blood but not another’s? That dialogue probably sounded cool when they thought it up, but could have used a bit of doctoring.

179

This show has become cringe at this point… Wow, what happened to season 1 Westworld… this is just garbage.

180

Yeah, like honestly, I think I would have rather had the show stay in the theme park. I think it would have been far more interesting watching people deal with the political, economic and technical challenges of entertaining the wealthy in a “murder simulation park” as the hosts become more advanced and self aware, rather than just defaulting to “kill all humans!”