Wouldn’t the best way of saving humanity in that case be to never, ever tell anyone about Christ or the Church? Clearly out of X number of people told, some small percentage will not be saved, but if they’d never been told about it, all of them would have been given a Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven. So the Church is actually ensuring that people go to hell by spreading the Word, which seems a little inconsistent to me.
Where did you read in anything I or anyone else posted that “if they’d never been told about it, all of them would have been given a Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven”? Ignorance of Christ is not exactly a free pass to heaven as far as the Church is concerned.
Believe or don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches. It’s of no concern to me whether you believe or not. But Catholic theology is anything but inconsistent. If one accepts the basic premises (and that’s where we get into questions of faith, not fact), the rest follows fairly logically.
I’m using your quotation about the “invincibly ignorant” being saved - either all of them are saved, which seems to be to be the only consistent position, and my argument stands, or else there’s a further selection process among those considered “invincibly ignorant”, and therefore they can’t all be classed together, which then means casting them all into hell is inconsistent.
I’m not making any bones about the fact that I don’t believe what the Church teaches; and I apologise if my slightly tongue-in-cheek comment about the Miraculous Magical Ticket to heaven was offensive to you. I do, however, see a contradiction in the fate that is foretold for those who never come into contact with Christianity at all.
The “invincibly ignorant” are saved, or not saved, depending on how they live their lives, just as Catholics, and Christians in general, are saved or not saved. Salvation is not “foretold” for those who never come into contact with Christianity, but it is possible. What I said was that the invincibly ignorant ***can ***be saved, not that they ***are ***saved.
As to the “Miraculous Magical Ticket,” no, I wasn’t offended. Yes, I’m a Catholic. I don’t prosyletize, I’m not especially concerned with whether anyone else is a Catholic, or a Christian of any stripe, and I realize that atheism is a perfectly defensible position.
Ah, I see. Apologies; I misunderstood your original post in this thread. We’ve been talking at cross purposes here, because of my misunderstanding.
Well, just temporarily, to rescue some worthy folks. He does have dominion over everywhere and can choose to visit Hell if He wants.
Doesn’t submission in your definition require an understanding of what is being done, and something that cannot be done by others in your name? That is to say, a person can only truly submit when they understand what they are submitting to and elect to do so of their own will? I seem to recall asking you about submission in the context of Mary’s pregnancy a short while ago.
Cliffy,
I do not intend to offend anyone and their beliefs, but the RCC is a very legalistic denomination. I was raised RC and am now Reformed.
The school of thought here as I see it, there is nothing we can do to repay a gift. If we were to repay a gift and that is what GRACE is then the gift wouldn’t be a gift. Aaey!
I would like to recommend a good book, this book is very good at releasing one from the legalisms that strangle Christians today.
The OP states,
Many do not understand what it means to be a Christian and continue to sin, However no Christian is free of sin and we have to know that we can fall. Our faith can be stolen from us while we are still in the flesh. When that happens we have to REPENT and change our ways. We must live like Jesus. A Christian will radiate Christ to everyone he meets. Please Pray for me and others that we can live up to this Christian way of life.
Really now… GOD went to hell temporarily.
Where do you folks come up with this stuff? I give up.
I did indeed remind myself never to ask her another question. Ever again.
Was that supposed to be funny?:dubious: Well it wasn’t. Thank you all the same.:mad:
Are you saying that she’s saved up until that moment or she is forever saved because of something she did or said sometime in the past?
They are saved from the horror of never giving money to a church again, and we all know that is totally unacceptable.
Time for a bit of sarcasm here…
She is saved from being like “the rest of us”. She is now “officially” better in some weird way. She now has the right to act superior and flaunt it to all the “doomed ones”. Funny thing is, I seem to remember the Bible having some hard words about “the selfrighteous man” somewhere.
She is saved from feeling bad about her short comings. She doesn’t have to work so hard, since she has the “Get out of Jail Free” card, so to speak.
It is really amazing how many people think they are … finished … with trying.
I think the Catholic Church would grant that we can never “repay” the gifts God has given us, including grace. Rather, it’s only His grace and love that give us the strength to do good works, and in fact impel us to do them. It’s not as a price to pay for our gifts, but the natural result of them.
You’ve never read Lovecraft, have you?
I couldn’t find an image of him in the act of actually eating one.
Uh- remember, the Trinity- Trinitarian Christians believe that Jesus is equally God with the Father. And Oneness Christians believe the Father & Son & the Spirit are just different roles that God plays in relationship with us. Hence, Jesus = God.
And as for going to Hell, that’s already be explained. Look up “Harrowing of Hell”. Also, I Peter 3:18-20.
Some “Word of Faith” Pentecostals have a spin on this in which JC is actually tortured during His time in Hell, endures & prevails to break free in Resurrection, leading the righteous souls into Heaven. The vast majority of Christians, including Pentecostals & many WoFers, think that’s a total near-blasphemous misreading.
Btw, the original Q was answered comprehensively the link in Post 2. Then the focus got on “Hell” while ignoring all the rest.