I find the idea of no afterlife to be far more comforting than the idea of the Christian heaven and hell. To even entertain that concept you have to accept that you may have gotten wrong and will be going to hell. I’d much rather just cease to exist than believe that most people will be tormented and tortured for all time for choosing the wrong religion.
That’s the outrage speaking. As an atheist, I’m always a little outraged at how hard religiosity is pushed in this country. For example, you can’t run for President without talking about your relationship with Jesus. And religious people actually prefer those patently insincere professions to an honest avowal of atheism. Further, I’ve often thought that most people who claim to believe in a particular religion actually don’t. Otherwise how could their behavior deviate so much from what their sacred book tells them to do, on pain of eternal punishment? There’s a level of insincerity there that’s a bit grating, to say the least.
Choosing the wrong religion is a big beef with me. The number of people that convert from the religion they are raised in is astonishingly low. So you aren’t even going to burn for what you chose, but for what the odds are severely stacked against you doing.
When you think of all the people in the world who don’t believe in the Christian god, that is a pretty large number of people who will be sent to hell. The majority of the population of the world for the majority of our time on this world.
I find this thread interesting in that it is difficult to collate a lack of something, and yet, we have all reached this house by a million different roads. It is a struggle to “become an atheist.” The absolute letting go of all the dogma and threats is terrifying. I think more people are atheists than admit, but just are afraid of hell fire and damnation if they say so.
CJJ*: There was a poster upthread (pepperlandgirl) that described how difficult it was to try to believe once you’ve accepted that you don’t. It may be comforting to find community and acceptance and (theoretical) eternal life inside the confines of a religion, and we may long for that at times, but accepting the things you have to accept, for me at least, is far, far more than I am actually capable of.
If I told you the Easter Bunny created the world, that would be a hard pill to swallow, no matter how great I tell you the Easter Bunny is, how filled with love, forgiveness, yadda yadda. You’ll still think I was off my rocker. You just can not wrap your head around the Easter Bunny being in control of it all. Same thing as us, except as noted before, we believe in exactly one less Easter Bunny than you.
For the Atheism versus Agnosticism question, I submit an old post and the subsequent discussion (starting with post 173).
I really appreciated this post. Thanks for taking the time.
First of all, we have no clue about what ultimate justice would be even if there is a god. Christianity has one answer, but there is no particular reason to believe in it. I was raised thinking that both good and bad died - period, and that’s how god worked. That’s probably no more reassuring than my position now as an atheist. I’d actually find being reincarnated as a cockroach more comforting than the Christian view of justice. That doesn’t make it right.
I also find a world where bad things happen due to random events and genetic diversity a lot more comforting than a world where an all-loving god either makes them happen or allows them to happen. If a loved one had to die early, I think it would be easier to accept if it happened by chance, rather than at the whim of some earthly or heavenly mercenary who can kill without punishment.
John Carter used to say “I still live” and that would be my answer. You said the problem is what happens after death, and I think that is a dumb reason to feel despair. Problems now are another matter entirely.
I actually liked my religious training and enjoyed going to shul, which I did more than required even after I was bar mitzvahed. At one point I was probably the most religious person in my family. My atheism comes purely from research and logic.
I didn’t respond to the cosmological argument before, but it is a good time to raise my challenge again - a challenge I used in alt.atheism long before I found the Dope. If one believes in a particular religion, anything stronger than weak deism, say I grant you that some god did create the universe. How do you connect this god to the one you worship? I think the cosmological argument actually works against Western religions, since they got the creation story totally wrong. I’d expect a truly inspired Bible writer to do a lot better - at least say the creation was a long time ago, and took more than a weak. (And I’m well aware of all the day isn’t a day answers - if Christianity weren’t the dominant religion, anyone with two brain cells to rub together would consider them slightly less believable than Flat-Earthism. ) If our God really did create the universe, how come the Sun is so young? Wouldn’t it make more sense that his people would be on one of the first planets to support life? If there is a god who created the universe for intelligence, he’s probably done with them, and we evolved in the leftover universe that he hasn’t gotten around to cleaning up yet.
So, the cosmological argument actually cheers me up/
And the right relationship. There was an article in the Times yesterday about how Huckabee’s resurgence in Iowa versus Romney is due in large part to the evangelicals being anti-Mormon. One is quoted as saying how Mormon missionaries are anti-Christian, and how she didn’t want to vote for someone who wouldn’t be praying to the correct god for advice. Some disguise this with the flip-flop issue, but Huckabee and Romney come out almost identically in the evangelical population in their view of their correctness on the issues - but evangelicals go for Huckabee 2 to 1.
Ill start off with some philosophical beliefs. I think it is impossible for anything in existence to be considered an absolute fact, even a color such as red. A fact is a universal truth, however nothing in this world can be a universal truth because that would require all humans to be cut from the same culture. Cultures that differ from our own have their own meanings and interpretations of all things that exist in this world. The color red meant something different to native american’s than it does to us now. Every single thought you have is an opinion and your own interpretation, and in such, there is no such thing as a fact.
Because I do not believe that anything can be proven in this world 100% I do not believe you can prove that god does not exist, however you also cannot prove that he does. I personally am an atheist but I can admit that is only an opinion and an interpretation in the way I perceive the world around me.
Okay, now to answer the questions. I personally believe in the big bang theory. One of the main reasons I chose to believe in scientific answers rather than “faith” and the bible is because of evidence. Faith has always relied on believing in what you cannot see. While on the other hand scientific theories offer tangible evidence. For example, one of the main points in the big bang theory is testing to see how old stars are. Scientists have found evidence that some stars are billions of years old, the bible on the other hand tells us that god created the universe around 6,000 years ago. Tangible evidence would suggest that the bible is wrong.
Often religious people knock those who support the big bang theory buy saying “okay so you believe that everything came from nothing?” But if you think about, those who believe in god are essentially supporting the same idea. Because the idea is that there was an original “something” that created everything. In god’s case it was god that created everything. And in a theory such as the big bang, it was singular matter that due to extreme heat expanded more and more and eventually bonded together creating all different types of matter and thus the universe and the concept of time was born. The point is that we do not know what created god and quite frankly we do not know what existed before the universe expanded. For all we know there could have been an infinity of universes before this one that have continued to expand the way our universe is right now and then once it has grown all it can it may implode and then start all over again.
It is human nature to be scared of death. Because no one knows what truly happens when we die, and as living person you never will. I personally believe that when you die that is it, I do not believe a person has a soul that goes anywhere spiritual. The human body black and white is composed of matter when we die we feed our matter back into a cycle. Bodies decompose into the earth we are broken down into minerals and basic forms of matter which is used by other organisms such as plants and then plants are consumed by other living organisms in that cycle. Its simply a cycle of taking and giving back matter.
Immortality provided by religions is very appealing, no one wants to cease to exist. This is where religion and the idea of god come into play. I believe that man created god and religion as a comfort tool. It is a way to cope with the unknown and to give a sense of direction in life. While it may sound harsh, I consider the idea of god to be a fairy tale. It was a story written by man for the entertainment of fellow men. Lets look at one fairy tale known as Santa Clause, everyone knows Santa is not real. But even though Santa and god are essentially the same, why do people wholeheartedly believe in one and not the other? It’s all about the benefits they can provide to you. What does Santa give you? He brings presents once a year and while that is nice and all; what does god give you? God gives you immortality, he gives you an eternity of happiness, free from all negative “sinful” human emotions. Which do you think is going to be more popular? Definitely the idea of a god. When people want to believe something so bad, they will literally do anything to believe it, thus making and living in a false reality to fulfill their personal wants.
I know that I am going to die someday, and that will be it. I choose to look at this life as the only life I have so I need to make the very best of it because its all I am getting. I do not fear mortality because I understand how incredibly lucky that I am that of all the occurrences that have happened in this world and all the occurrences that are possible of happening, I came to be. I think we all have to feel lucky that we exist and are given the chance to live because of the near infinite amount of humans that could exist and could have existed in the past. If you look at the very first humans in the genealogical tree all it takes is one of them to mate with someone else and the future and all humans are completely different, this how I look at it and choose to “compensate” for not having spiritual immortality beliefs.
I am the only person in my family (mom and dads) side who is an atheist, and it is definitely a challenge at times to separate religion and culture. It may be somewhat contradictory but I look at Christmas the same way most other people look at it. It is a time to spend with family, and to give presents and just celebrate. Even though Christmas is a religious holiday I still enjoy it. The only difference is that I do not believe in the religious implications that come with it. I just celebrate with family, I just go along with the religious aspects of it as this is a way to prevent family fights. I think for the most part Christmas is irrelevant to my beliefs because I choose to make it so. It would become harder if someone for example asked me to say a prayer or something along those lines (forcing me into the religious aspect). However I can see for other atheists from different cultures it may be more difficult to separate the cultural celebration from the religion depending on the holiday.
[quote=“CJJ, post:1, topic:427871”]
[ul]
[li]How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.[/ul][/li][/quote]
The “challenge” is not how to deal with cosmology. The challenge is to make a conscious decision to accept claims that depend on logic and reason and not to blindly accept superstition, fear and imagination to conform to social pressures.
There are many modern theories about how the universe came to be what it is. One of them may be true. Whether we already came up with a theory that will ultimately be proven true, or not, is irrelevant to the universe and to Cosmological Truth ™.
CT is there … if we can comprehend it, that’s fine, if we don’t, that’s fine too. But there’s no “challenge”… It’s only about a human being’s willingness to acknowledge that it’s not their opinion, beliefs or perceptions that define the universe.
[quote]
[ul]
[li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. […][/ul][/li][/quote]
They don’t. They may say they do but they don’t. Some people may try hard to convince themselves that they won’t die, and in the beginning of human societies some people may have truly believed they’ll live forever – hence the invention of religion – but we now know enough for everyone to be certain that everyone dies and there’s no afterlife, no matter what the “believers” claim. They know they’re wrong but they’ll not admit it in public.
Cultural customs have to do with social interaction, something that is inherent in human nature. Observing Christmas customs and enjoying them along with an individual’s social group is independent of a belief to superstition, supernatural and imaginary beings.
The first cause argument does not convince at all. Because the world is here, there must be something that caused it. So you conjure up some kind of creature that made all of the world. Now explain where he came from. If he was created, then we start over again.
It is very unsatisfying and endless.
Eternal life is an easy sell. Death is a new beginning. God will take you into everlasting bliss . Sounds pretty good. I would like to buy that, but it is silly. Facing your own mortality is a challenge. It is a lot easier to pretend you will be all snug and happy sometime.
In regular life I ignore religion. It is a ritual that I do not agree with nor do i understand the waste of time and money it entails. If it makes you feel better, good for you. just keep it to yourself. I wont preach if you don’t.
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It is positively ludicrous that anything at all exists. Either something has always been, or something erupted spontaneously from nothing. Both options are equally absurd. ‘God did it’ serves no purpose other than to shift the question up one step.
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In the words of someone famous, I was dead for billions of years before I was born, and it didn’t hurt me in the slightest. Yeah, it kind of sucks that we get the grandiose experience of life, only to have it snatched back from us. But its amazing that we get what we got. Coulda been born an ant…
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I rarely acknowledge religion. Christmas is a day to get together with the family. Easter is a bonus day off. I do pretend to believe a bit for grandma, who thinks I am a deist, which is acceptable to her, if unpalatable. No harm in a little lie.
What Are Your Challenges In Being An Atheist ?
Well, I’ve been trying to get to 4 gods denied before breakfast, but the run up to the fourth is real tricky. There’s a casuistic trap behind the second hard left turn that I just can’t seem to get down. For some reason, it always eats my brains.
lol.
Thanks for the laugh. 
Why don’t you ask the good citizens of my country of origin, the UK. We’re one of the most irreligious places in the western world, and I’m presuming we have a similar distribution of people who are dumb and weak and incapable as where you’re from - yet we all manage to get by somehow, despite not cleaving to your mythology.
I find that question taking its premises from a religio-centric falsehood - and quite patronising too, in case you hadn’t noticed.
My answers to the OP:
Universal origins/God: it’s unknowable to my puny brain. There is absolutely no reason at all to add something supernatural to the mix.
Immortality: it’s only an issue at all thanks to religious folks. Again, why would I even consider the phenomenon? I see no reason to. Ever been knocked out? It’s going to be like that except I won’t come round. I have one life to lead, so let’s make it a good one, one that makes me happy and in which I conform to my personal morality as much as I can.
Celebrations: why not? They can be fun. I’ve been to places of worship of different faiths all over the world and seen many different ceremonies. I find them fascinating. It’s a rich backbone to the culture of many places. My parents are Christian and I don’t have a problem going to church to make them happy (or weddings or funerals). I’m not allergic to it. I even sing the hymns - why not? Some of them are very rousing and it doesn’t matter if I don’t believe what I’m singing. My family celebrates Christmas as about 95% secular anyway, and I love it as family-oriented holiday with quaint customs. Its origins are unimportant to me: it’s part of the aforementioned rich backbone of my culture.
I hope that helps and I appreciate your enquiry. I would be interested, CJJ*, if these responses bring you any closer to comprehending atheists’ positions. (I use the plural because lack of belief is not monolithic.) Would you be willing to post back once you’ve absorbed them all?
never mind, didn’t notice zombism.
It would have been nice if the OP had just asked the question in the title and let people answer what they may. Because I agree with the consensus. Those issues in the OP aren’t big ones to me.
The cause of the universe is just one of the many things that are Unknowable. I can come up with some cool science-fictional scenarios (maybe when this universe is done expanding as far as it can, it will constrict faster than the speed of light and the resulting singularity will start the whole party all over again, ad infinitum). But I’m fine with not knowing stuff and focusing my energies on things that I can know.
The struggle over death is universal. Believers struggle with it just as much as non-believers do. A fact which has always puzzled me. Why weep over aborted fetuses that don’t even know life? Death is not sad for the dead person; it’s sad for the people who have lost someone. I imagine that I will go through some existential turmoil when it becomes clear that I’m dying (if I’m given warning, that is). But the idea that I won’t have to face judgment over mistakes I’ve made…this is comforting. Spending my last moments on Earth trying to convince myself that I’m good enough to go to Heaven is not as comforting.
Again, Believers are the ones who imbue special powers to certain days of the week and year. They are the ones who wrestle with how or whether to celebrate…not the rest of us. I like singing Christmas songs (it’s not Christmas without the Temptations and the Jackson 5!) I like singing Hanukkah songs (or at least the one that I learned in grammar school). Hell, you throwing a Kwanzaa party? I’ll go to that too and enjoy the libations in honor of those who came before. If I don’t have a problem bowing my head in respect for other’s prayers, why would I have a problem celebrating holidays? I don’t partake in holy-sacred rituals like taking the Holy Communion, but I recognize fun for what it is and will partake in that.
What are my challenges? Well, one thing that I struggle with is not succumbing to nihilism. I don’t think life is precious or wonderful (or horrible and full of suffering, either). It just is. So just what is keeping me from self-destruction? Ultimately, fear and a sense of purpose. Where do these feelings come from? I have no idea. And it doesn’t matter. It should matter, I suppose, but it doesn’t. Not to me.
Totally opposing my nihilistic streak is a “should” factor in my personality. It carries with it guilt and a sense of obligation to do “right”. Again, where do these feelings come from? If I’m as “belief-free” as I think I am, then I should be a little bit more secure in my righteousness.
(FWIW, I’m not an atheist. I’m just an agnostic still waiting for a persuasive argument.)
The biggest challenge?
ZOMBIES!!!
I think when this tread was first around, I was in the final stages of Paganism. I have since recovered completely. 
1- Cosmology- As I understand it, the current idea is a Quantum Mechanical “foam” that may, on occasion, toss out a seed, if you will, that if the numbers go right, will go “BANG” in a pretty big way, and thus the universe (and presumably many others) are created. This is amazing to me. But I also acknowledge that it may be wrong. Time will tell, probably long after I am dead.
2- Mortality- When I was younger, I was a Christian. I took great comfort in thinking that my grandfather, puppies, whatever were waiting in Heaven. As a Pagan, the idea of a “heaven-esque” afterlife persisted. Now, as an athiest, I understand that they lived, and died, and are gone. What we have in life is it. This makes me pay more attention to my fellow man, and I am making it my life goal to try to make my children better people that I was/am, and give them a better life than I had. That is my immortality, that 50 years from now my children will tell their grandkids about me, and it will be good.
3-cultural faith- I was raised American mutt, with no specific faith focal point. I jokingly refer to Christmas as Loot Day, but am aware of the religious underpinings of the holiday. Same with Easter, Halloween, and Thanksgiving. While aware of them, they have no bearing on me. These are Hollidays to spend time with family, enjoy the company of good friends, be happy and enjoy good food and fellowship with my fellow man. No god necessary.
Why would I find any “challenges” in being an atheist?
Is there some kind of proof of the existence of a deity that I haven’t heard about? That might be a challenge.
But quite simply, there’s no proof that Zeus or Odin or any other “god” exists. Therefore I face no challenge.
Does the OP have some proof of the existence of Zeus that I’m not aware of?