What Are Your Challenges In Being An Atheist? (Spin-off for other ??)

[ianzin]

@CJJ

How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)?

The ‘god’ response doesn’t answer the question, it just shifts it back one step, and is clearly just one myth fable among many that have arisen in various civilisations down the centuries. I know there are clever people called cosmologists who develop the best theories we can about where everything came from. I’m not a cosmologist, nor do I pretend to be one. The question of how everything got here doesn’t often come up in real life, but if it does, I would defer to people, like cosmologists, who know what they are talking about.

Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways.

It doesn’t provide comfort and it isn’t meant to. But nor does it hold any ‘discomfort’ or terror for me either. The world was getting along just fine without me for a few million years before I came along, and it will do just fine without me after I’m gone. Some people choose their beliefs to provide comfort. Some of us try not to do that, and try instead to believe in stuff that’s true and real and accurate. We don’t take comfort in fairy tales and make-believe and we think it’s a bit pointless to do so. Part of the challenge of adult life is coming to terms with reality and accepting what is real, even if we might wish things otherwise. When I’m dead, that’s it, end of story, and I don’t have any negative feelings about this fact, nor can I comprehend why anyone would suppose I should. The world would get pretty crowded if people didn’t die.

Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate

None whatsoever.

[Frylock]

[quote=“CJJ, post:1, topic:427871”]

[li]How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.[/li][/quote]

On a personal level, causes aren’t something I get exercised about. The possible nonexistence of an ultimate rationale sometimes bothers me. But I suspect that once I get very clear on what “ultimate” is supposed to mean in that phrase, I will realize that the very idea of an “ultimate rationale” is incoherent. I haven’t really worked that out in full, though. But basically, I suspect any candidate for an ultimate rationale will turn out to be merely contingent in some meaningful way–and so not ultimate. Contradiction. Hence the concept is incohereht.

[quote]
[li]Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.[/li][/quote]

For one thing, you never know what miraculous ultra-tech wonders may enable far future cultures to revive us. The necessary information is all there. But that doesn’t stave off the end of the universe, of course.

Basically, to answer you more directly, one’s beliefs shouldn’t be led by one’s values, but rather, the other way around. Letting one’s beliefs be led by one’s values is actually evil.

[li]Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.[/li][/list]

To be of any value at all, religion must (and in its best incarnations does try to) transcend cultural and ethnic identities.

*BTW I’m only an atheist in a very odd sense, and I’m only a believer in a very odd sense. I think that something propositionally indistinguishable from atheism may be the best expression of true Christianity.

[Frylock]

In light of some of the responses above, I want to register that I (for one), even though I don’t believe in an afterlife, nevertheless desperately want there to be some kind of “afterlife.” I do want to live forever. Because things are interesting and I predict they always will be.

But this has nothing to do with religion. It’s just me wanting to do more of whatever it is I do already.

[Frylock]

@Naxos

They don’t. They may say they do but they don’t. Some people may try hard to convince themselves that they won’t die, and in the beginning of human societies some people may have truly believed they’ll live forever – hence the invention of religion – but we now know enough for everyone to be certain that everyone dies and there’s no afterlife, no matter what the “believers” claim. They know they’re wrong but they’ll not admit it in public.

You may be sheltered. People really believe this stuff. They really do. It’s thoroughly, almost despicably irrational. But it’s an actual belief that people actually have.

And they do cling to it on their deathbeds as a source of actual comfort. I dun seed this with my own two eyes.

[Frylock]

@Sophistry_and_Illusion

Heaven would be nice. But when I die, I won’t know I’m dead, so it won’t represent a period of suffering for me. So I don’t (at this point) worry about death.

Not to derail the thread at all, but to note: I think that since we don’t properly worry only about suffering, but also about (among other things) a prospective loss of ability, and since death is a loss of (all!) ability, death is properly to be worried about.

[Frylock]

@FriarTed

I was actually thinking of Doestoevsky’s quote “If there is no God, anything is permissable” which of course is an argument that God is the ground of morality.

Funny thing about that: Paul is quite explicit in claiming that everything is permissible. I’m sure you know the verse reference.

Would Dostoevsky go on to affirm that “If there is no God, then everything is expedient?” Probably not…

[Voyager]

@Frylock

On a personal level, causes aren’t something I get exercised about. The possible nonexistence of an ultimate rationale sometimes bothers me. But I suspect that once I get very clear on what “ultimate” is supposed to mean in that phrase, I will realize that the very idea of an “ultimate rationale” is incoherent. I haven’t really worked that out in full, though. But basically, I suspect any candidate for an ultimate rationale will turn out to be merely contingent in some meaningful way–and so not ultimate. Contradiction. Hence the concept is incohereht.

The nonexistence of an ultimate rationale comforts me. If it has anything to do with me, it can’t be good - not that I haven’t had a good life, but it comes in the midst of a lot of suffering. Randomness is a lot more comforting than a prime mover who is evil by any of our standards. The alternative is that the rationale is not about us. Would Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern in Stoppard’s play be comforted if they learned what the purpose of their world was, and their role in it? Cows and pigs and turkeys grow up in a world with a purpose - I’m not sure they’d be thrilled by it if they had the sense to know it. If lightning must strike, I’d rather it strike more or less randomly than be directed at me. And I’d much rather understand why it strikes where it does so I can avoid it. In the Middle Ages disease could be given a rationale from God, or it could be considered random. Volcanoes were created by gods, or they were random. Today we can figure out the chances of one erupting soon. Now, thanks to science, we don’t need metaphysical explanations for either of these. Why should the universe be any different?

[I_Love_Me_Vol.I]

@Dinsdale

1. At present, we have no way of knowing what pre-existed the Big Bang. It is enough for me to say “I don’t know,” rather than to construct some story that goves me comfort. It strikes me as particularly ludicrous that so many folk are eager to go from “I don’t know” to constructing an extremely detailed belief system in which they “know” all manner of irrational things to be true.

…And then call you arrogant for “thinking you know everything” (e.g. the Big Bang) when it is they that have allllll the answers in their nifty little field guide to the Universe (which they change their interpretation of when science changes and/or just to suit their needs) and the atheist who admits how little we really know.

[RickJay]

1. How do I deal with the cosmological argument?

To be perfectly honest, I don’t. The origin of the cosmos is just not a conversation that comes up very often or something that I’ve put much intellectual energy into. Whatever the scientists are saying right now is, I would assume, as close to the truth as we’ve gotten. I have a very rudimentary understanding of the Big Bang but beyond that I just haven’t done the required reading. The eggheads running the LHC seem to have as good a handle on it as anyone and I’ll defer to their judgment.

2. Comfort of immortality.

To be honest, the concept of death, inasmuch as I have thought about it, is simply one I have accepted as being an intrinsic part of being human. It does occur to me that it would be nice to live longer or have more than one stab at it, but in the way that it would be nice to win the Lotto or have laser beam vision.

I personally find myself stupefyingly lucky in this regard, in that I was born at a time and place where my life expectancy (and quality of life on the way) is extraordinarily high as compared to my contemporaries and predecessors. Relatively speaking, I’m getting a lot of years.

3. Religion/Cultire Crossover.

In this regard I’m lucky in that my family, while officially Catholic, was never serious about it, and so all our holidays concentrated on the secular aspects of the day. Christmas was 99% Santa Claus, 1% Jesus; Easter was 99% bunny, 1% Jesus. I’ve never personally faced a challenge in this regard. But I acknowledge that this is not the case for many atheists; I am in this regard very, very lucky.

[CJJ]

@jjimm

Even though this is a zombie, I see from his profile that CJJ* was last active on the SDMB a mere four days ago, so I’m hoping he will rise again in this thread.

I’ve been deliberately sitting this one out–partly because I wanted to see the redevelopment some 4+ years after my OP, partly because of the holiday.

Anyway, if it’s of any interest to hear someone answer his younger self, I’m still somewhat of a believer, though much less so as the years go by. The cosmological argument still nags at me. The various refutations IMO seem defensive and far from convincing, and taken to its logical conclusion the entire universe then serves as evidence for the existence of some kind of supernatural entity. It’s difficult for me then to accept that such a powerful force/being would not have some involvement in humanity. Please note I’m not writing this to convince anyone, just to lay out the reasons why I then (and now) found the argument compelling. And I know that accepting this argument is a far cry from the ridiculous god figures of modern religions (I’ve deliberately kept the word “god” out of the discussion). Yes, YogSosoth, it could just as easily be the Flying Spaghetti Monster

The promised immortality of religion is obviously a sop, but the comfort it provides is still real, and I suspect people are drawn to religion more for this comfort than its originating truth–they’re willing to overlook the illogical in favor of personal happiness. I notice that most responses to the question in this thread are variations on sour grapes–who would want the kind of immortality promised by religion?–which leads me to suspect they reflect the mere acceptance that such immortality doesn’t exist. That’s fine, but then what do you do about the profound sadness that inevitably results? IMO Tristan’s response deals with the problem the best: “What we have in life is it. This makes me pay more attention to my fellow man, and I am making it my life goal to try to make my children better people that I was/am, and give them a better life than I had. That is my immortality, that 50 years from now my children will tell their grandkids about me, and it will be good.” He/she’s found a comfort in atheism I hadn’t fully considered, and I agree it will be good.

I see now (with four years hindsight) that the religion/culture question is really weak. I have no greater problem participating in and enjoying religious celebrations than I do watching movies about disturbing subjects–just because I like The Godfather and will quote/reference it at length doesn’t mean I endorse gangsters. I personally like the look of a cresche and its general theme of humble peace. Of course, Christmas always gives some Christian nutjob the opportunity to shame folks into choosing religion, but I’ve gotten to a point in my life where I just don’t feel the need to logically justify every trivial decision I make. If I put up a cresche to celebrate Christmas, I just don’t care if, logically, I am endorsing Christianity and should therefore adopt the Christian religion. I don’t even care to refute such arguments. In this sense then, I agree with everyone’s answer to the last question-- and borrowing from the great theologian Ned Flanders–“even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff”.

[Untoward_Parable]

How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.

Well it’s intellectually challenging either way. Personally I accept that I know I do not have the evidence to take a stand either way. Infinite possibilities. Certainly not knowing causes me anxiety though I suppose if I found out the truth is that existence was created by giant bug creatures as a nursery to grow their foodstuffs and that at the moment of death I was actually no dead but taken to them to be eaten alive I would have much more anxiety.

Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.

Ya as an atheist I don’t know anything about that moment as there is the evidence is not conclusive. It leans in this direction based on physical consequences of death and lack of any other evidence but this could be the matrix for all I know, sensory information can be a pretty convincing con. It’s very challenging to live with knowing this is a very likely result of death. Not sure where regret comes in though. I don’t remember choosing to be born but who knows I guess. The nothing is frightening but at least if that is the end my brain won’t be here to be frightened of it. I don’t know what I would do if I could choose to have faith but I can’t. By the time I was 10 or so I had last any ability to believe in things I had no strong evidence for. I don’t mind entertaining the possibilities but they stay in a fairly light-hearted part of my brain and never take any greater root.

Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.

I find reminders that I am a minority and generally disliked by people in the god club to be disheartening. You rack up a lot of bad experiences living here and the reminders remind you of the things you would rather not be reminded of. For me Christmas is the holiday I remember most warmly from my childhood and it is very commercial so it’s still a net positive. The Santa Claus thing may have been what tipped my mind away from the illogical as it turns out. At that young age you are told by everyone that Santa is real and then eventually they all admit they were lying. It wasn’t a big leap to lay the same test on God’s doorstep. I am still waiting for my family to let me know that was a joke too, the judgmental attitudes would be a bit better if I found out it had all just been a part of a 30 year joke. (They’d be bastards but at least they’d be bastards that didn’t believe I was going to Hell).

There are tons of other challenges a atheist faces. My first long term commited girlfriend’s parents moved her from our school and waged a 3 year guilt and hated campaign against me just for not believing in God. People in surveys say they would elect basically anyone before they elected an admitted atheist to the office of the president. You miss out on friends and business opportunities and on and on for not playing along and when you do play along you feel like a deceptive douche. When people start talking to you assuming you’re Christian and you stop to correct their assumption it’s you who feels like the ass even though you should’t ect ect.

[Doubticus]

@CJJ

How do you, as an atheist, personally deal with the cosmological argument (glibly, something caused the universe to come into existence, that something must be god)? I personally would find it intellectually challenging to deny it, but I’m not really interested in arguing the point, just whether or not it is a personal challenge, and if so, how you deal with it.

First off, I consider the label of 'agnostic" more accurate than “atheist” to describe my point of view. In regards to the first question, if God created the universe, then what/who created God? I don’t find it any less logical to assume the Universe came into existence first or in my view, always existed.

@CJJ

Some religious folks derive comfort in a form of immortality promised by many religions. It is difficult to understand how knowing one will cease to exist upon death can provide a similar value, but perhaps it does or it’s compensated for in other ways. Again, this is not at all a reason to adopt religious beliefs, but I am curious if atheists feel the regret of living with certain mortality as an emotional challenge.

People don’t have a frame of reference for non-existence. Do you remember being bored, unhappy or in a state of suffering prior to being born? You have to be alive to experience anything, even the bad stuff. As such, reverting to that state isn’t a source for despair, but it does make me treasure my time on Earth that I have. If the Universe is eternal there is even a chance I may come back in some form, but even if I don’t, I won’t be counting the years until it happens.

@CJJ

Religion is often tied to ethnic or cultural identities and practices. Christmas in America is a good example; though technically a religious holiday, it is for all intents and purposes a cultural celebration. What challenges do you face in keeping religion and culture personally separate, or do you think such distinctions are irrelevant and therefore not challenging (unless someone else insists on making it a challenge)? Use Christmas as an example if you like, but the question is generally about religious ties to culture.

My family still celebrates Christmas, but it is a time of self reflection and time with family, there are no real challenges with that arrangement.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Kobal2

What Are Your Challenges In Being An Atheist ?

Well, I’ve been trying to get to 4 gods denied before breakfast, but the run up to the fourth is real tricky. There’s a casuistic trap behind the second hard left turn that I just can’t seem to get down. For some reason, it always eats my brains.

Yeah, you should always take that left turn at Altacamani.