Are you aware that the point of his post has flown so far over your head that it might be in orbit by now?
Because they have a different culture. And they want to do so. It’s no different from State pride or patriotism. It’s only a problem when you link it to racism.
How about the American flag? Is there any reason you can’t be proud of that?
All of those things come from what is known as “the south” it’s true. And they’re all things to be proud of, but it misses what I and others here are trying to say.
The question is, why is that area considered to be a distinct region known as “the south”? You say “fuck Los Angeles”. Isn’t Los Angeles south? It’s only about 150 miles from Tijuana Mexico! How is it not south?
So, in spite of it’s name, “the south” isn’t really defined by geography. What is it defined by? It’s definition seems to be, those states that attempted secession in the 19th century[sup]*[/sup].
If someone in Missouri wants to take special pride in Mark Twain, that’s great. Being an American (and living in Pennsylvania), I also take some pride in Mark Twain. But is there some reason that Alabama or Florida should take special pride in Twain versus taking the more general pride that I feel? Only if you see “the south” as some special region.
From what I can see “southern pride” is pride in an arbitrary region defined by a 19th century rebellion.
[sup]*[/sup]It’s a bit of a fuzzy definition, there were secession movements in the Arizona and New Mexico territories for example, and neither of those states are considered part of the south, but it’s hard to deny that the region known as “the south” in general represents the old Confederacy.
Southeast, really, but your point is taken. True enough, I don’t have Southern pride; I’m not the sort to have pride in stuff I didn’t do, and indeed I think that even harmless versions of this sort of pride (pride in a local sports team, pride in your school) aren’t great, as they encourage the sort of tribalism that gets humans in so much trouble.
But if folks want to be proud of stuff from the South[east], that list is the kind of thing I think they should be proud of.
Edit: if the South is defined by the rebellion, does that imply that there was no regional awareness prior to 1860?
The South (capitalization is proper; as noted it’s not a matter of simple latitude) is defined by all kinds of natural, historical, and cultural characteristics. As are other regions–which should rightly take pride in the best of these.
Don’t be so smug. The Southern Poverty Law Center prepared thismap of hate groups, nationwide. Even outside the South, quite a few consider themselves affiliated with the KKK.
The Battle Flag disgusts me & I’m glad my state refused to put it on license places–Clarence Thomas agreed. But this generalized bashing of everybody in the South is rather shortsighted. When somebody says “from what I can see”–I recommend a visit to the optometrist.
I never said that the South’s white population was composed entirely of racists, but they are a vocal minority and often consider the Confederate flag a source of pride.
Maybe YOU, as a Southerner, consider the history of racism and oppression shameful and are proud of the marginally successful efforts to fight it, but come on. I have heard way too many Southerners’ loud casual racist remarks and rants to consider them anomalies unrepresentative of a wide swath of Southern “culture.”
I certainly do not think only white Southerners form its character. Are you under the impression that only white people can be racist? Plus we are talking about history here, and that is a history in which white people thinking they literally owned black people like farm animals overshadows the biscuits and pulled pork. Yes, not all white Southerners owned slaves, supported slavery, or were in any position of power to do anything about it. I don’t think white Southerners should be ashamed of the past or in inherited guilt of any kind, but flying the Confederate flag is a widely accepted symbol that purposely announces that you wish the Civil War’s outcome had gone the other way and one is nearly guaranteed a glimpse of one within minutes of entering a Southern state.
That said, I think people should be free to fly whatever hateful flag they want. If racists want to make it easy for others to spot them from a distance, great.
I could go along with Jon Stewart:
I’m no historian, but the Mason-Dixon Line goes back to 1804, so it was a defined region based on legality of slavery by then if not before.
Notice, again, that in describing folks in the South, you completely leave out describing nonwhite people. Indeed, the only agency you give nonwhite people is to suggest that they can be racist, too–otherwise you ignore them entirely. Check yourself, Anamen.
This is, incidentally, a pretty common symptom of racism among white liberals outside the South. They want to polish their bona fides by criticizing Southerners for racism, not realizing as they do so that their own racial bias prevents them from thinking about the black people in the South.
It’s not a symptom unique to Northerners, though. I remember visiting a history museum in Charleston some years back and reading a plaque talking about how terrified Charlestonians were at the approach of the Union Navy, and I was like, uh, SOME Charlestonians were thrilled as hell to see those ships. Those ships represented freedom to some Charlestonians. The historian who wrote those plaques suffered from the same racial bias that your posts continue to show.
First, it’s not just a matter of things people did–pride in and reverence for the land is part of this. Distinctive natural features and landscapes in every region are endangered when local people don’t particularly cherish them.
Second, it’s not a zero-sum game, or a matter of necessary relative superiority. You don’t have to despise the Rockies or the Plains or the Cape, or their peoples and cultural products, to love the Appalachians or the Low Country or the Bay.
That’s true, and I may get too pedantic about the word “pride.” Substituting “love” or “cherish” might work better for me, but I’m not sure I should worry too much about it. Certainly I love the Appalachians like no other place on earth. But you’re right that that doesn’t mean I think they’re superior to, say, the Rockies. It’s just that they’re my home, and they fit me.
Everyone is attributing all these deep and dark meanings to an antique flag and what a redneck putting that on his jacked-up pickup truck really thinks. Hint from a born and bred Southerner who still lives in the South: It’s a very shallow thought process (not that there’s anything wrong with that) among the lines of “I like my Southern way of life, I don’t need anyone’s help, and I’m trying to show I’m a badass.” That’s it. Listen to country music and you’ll get the same message. Over and over.
In the meantime real things that affect the world-wide economy like the TPP are zooming by mostly unnoticed.
If only it weren’t for this flag issue, I’m sure the nation’s attention would be riveted by the TPP. Curse you, flag issue!
Wouldn’t fly. (Sorry)
BBQ was invented and perfected by black people. No way the South would pick a symbol that didn’t let white peckerwoods feel “superior” to everybody else.
I can’t offhand think of a single notable sport invented in the South.
Props for Mark Twain, Dr. King, and pulled pork, but what sports did the South give us?
A guy playing a banjo in the back of a pick up truck jumping a Col Sanders?
You’ll note I mentioned a lot of authors by name but sort of glossed over the whole sports thing. I’m not remotely proud of my ignorance in this arena. I was kind of getting at not so much the invention of sports in the south so much as the teams that come out of the south–I’m under the impression that the south produces an inordinate number of good football and especially basketball teams. I may well be mistaken.
The exercise of smug superiority. Of course, we only invented it; it was perfected by folks outside the South.