What, if Anything, Can Ronda Roussey Do To Be Competitive?

The Game Room
1

I, personally, don’t think she can do anything.

No doubt she can beat most top 15 contenders, some top 10 and maybe one or two top five.

But I doubt she will ever hold a title again. Here’s why:

  1. She is too loyal: She has counted on Tarverdyan all the way up until now. This despite his failure to coach any other fighter to meaningfulness and his coaching Rousey’s fiance to ignominious defeats. The fiance (Travis Brown) has since split Tarverdyan but Rousey hasn’t.

Rousey’s mom has been slagging Tarverdyan for years and that didn’t move Ronda. She lost to Holmes owing (largely) to shitty coaching and that didn’t move her. She got her ass beat by Nunez owing to shitty coaching and she still hasn’t left.

Loyalty is admirable but, in this case loyalty will result in her never being a threat again.

  1. This ties into number 1 above. She needs to get hit… a lot.

Ronda has spent her whole career not getting hit. She’s not used to it and she dislikes it. She doesn’t know how to respond. Her whole thing is to get hit once, maybe twice while she forces the clinch and then never get hit again. This worked really well against people that were willing to do just that. It failed against ones that weren’t willing to.

Holly Holmes lit Rousey up but she did it methodically using movement and letting Ronda overcommit and then making her pay for it. Rousey was never unbeatable, she was just unbeatable if you played by her rules. Holmes was the first who wouldn’t play be her rules.

Nunez took what Holmes had shown and made it absolutely clear. Paste Rousey without clinching and keep pasting her and she’ll drop.

  1. She needs to concentrate on defensive striking - to do this she needs to focus on offensive striking. Until you understand the offense you can’t mount a defense. She will never be able to handle striker until she understands what they are trying to do. No different than defending a choke when you don’t understand the set-up. Or an armbar for that matter.

Until she understands offensive striking she will never have much of a chance at defensive and since she will never be a threatening offensive striker she needs to learn it from a perspective of “how do I defend.”

  1. She needs to get out of her own head - look at Donald Cerrone. He is an extremely skilled fighter. He can strike, wrestle, submit. He can take lots of shots and he can fire back. H can do this every 4 or 5 months.

But he loses sometimes.

Losses don’t destroy Cerrone because he doesn’t see himself as indestructible and his ego isn’t wrapped up in “I never lose” bullshit. A loss stings but it doesn’t cripple.

Rousey’s head was in the “I’m indestructible” mode and that got shattered so she went to the “it was a one off” and that got destroyed.

She has never shown the strength of character (will yes, character no) that would allow her to rebound from two unquestionable thumpings.

So I don’t think Ronda Rousey will ever be truly meaningful again because I don’t think she will do these things and, even if she wanted to, I don’t think she has time.

She can’t even really cut weight because she is already fighting below her natural weight and a cut just reduces her strength and stamina - the cut to 135 is already taxing - I don’t see her making 125 and then she’d be looking at Joanna Jędrzejczyk and that’d be like Nunez all over again.

But maybe I’m wrong. Is there something Rousey can, and will, do that wil allow her to reclaim a belt or at least relevance?

2

Stop trying to out box boxers. If she was a big man you could say, “ok, let him absorb a few hits he can take it and recover”. She is a woman and a medium sized one at that, she ain’t getting back after a few hard hits, she is done for.

Unfortunately, she does not have the boxing background that she can read and roll with punches, that takes years to learn.

The one time in the Holmes fight she actually had an advantage was when she briefly took it to the ground, Holmes was able to recover and then outbox her. She never even attempted a full take down in the Nunes fight.

The strategy of trying to fix her major disadvantage by making her a better boxer is doomed to fail.

3

You’re right on all counts.

But she doesn’t need to outbox a boxer she needs to disarm them.

As you said about Holmes, Rousey did get it to the ground but Holmes recovered. She trained specifically to get up. Not fight back, not counter but simply get up without leaving openings and Rousey couldn’t handle it because she has spent all of her time training for people that want to stay on the ground.

Keep in mind she only got the bronze in the Olympics so even against people willing to fight her fight she wasn’t the best - on that (those) day(s).

She doesn’t need to learn to box - she needs to learn how to not get boxed. And that, given her phenomenal ability to throw and trip, will serve her very well. If you can negate their offense you create openings for your offense.

I don’t think she will ever return to competitiveness for the reasons I laid out, but if she is ever going to she needs to spend some serious time learning how strikers strike so she can anticipate and react to her benefit.

The first step is she needs to change camps but I don’t think her basic make-up will allow for it.

4

She might win one of the Women’s Titles in WWE, but never again in UFC. :smiley:

5

Do you really think so?

I know nothing about how the WWE functions but I don’t see it.

Ken Shamrock worked because the general fan knew nothing of MMA at the time he transitioned - briefly I think. Anyone that knew Ken Shamrock from MMA knew he was a schlub and wouldn’t buy it. But MMA was still nascent so it could pass.

Rousey getting her ass handed to her definitively…twice in a row. I’m not sure. I mean it made the BBC so how would the WWE sell her as dangerous when every wrestling fan has a friend that can say, “But she can’t get hit and she can’t avoid being hit. If she gets hurt it blows her game.”

I’m genuinely curious because I don’t really know WWE or its fans. Could it go over? If so, how do you see it working?

As to MMA she’s done unless she’s willing to fight two or three contenders and work back to the top. I don’t see that happening unless she does the four things I listed (yes, all fighters give me lots of money as I know all … mwahhahahahaha) and I don’t see that coming.

6

Pardon what I’m sure is a stupid question, but I’ve wondered all along why she doesn’t either just dive for her opponents’ legs or slide in like a baseball player, grab their legs in a bear hug, and bring them to the ground where she can have her way with them. And if that fails, stay on the ground kicking or whatever until she can either get up safely to try again, or continue trying to bring her opponents down while they’re attempting to throw downward punches at her while she’s on the ground.

7

I was being a little facetious, I guess. If I’m thinking about it seriously? It may have worked a couple years ago when she made her WrestleMania cameo. WWE could sure use a woman that thinks nothing of slapping the taste out of Stephanie McMahon’s mouth.

But after these two losses… I don’t know.

8

Oh, selling her as dangerous is easy, come on Vince was able to make a literal clown look dangerous. And fight with Bret Hart.

Problem is for her if she goes to WWE, her MMA career is basically over. The WWE is pretty physically intensive and time consuming. Plus you can bet now with the return of brand extension (and the election of Donald Trump and Mrs McMahon’s elevation to the Administration( WWE won’t be as “G” rated as before. She will be expected to “display her assets” so to speak, like Lita was. Which she won’t do.

BTW, don’t know why Shamrock is being derided. He did beat Dan Severn (who also fought in the then WWF) and no one calls him a bum.

9

That’s what I was saying.

Two clear knockouts - the last taking only 48 seconds - she can’t be cast as the indestructible tough bitch.

I think her ship has sailed for Hollywood and WWE. I kind of understand the basics of Hollywood but WWE I don’t know since the early 90’s.

I am (was) curious if WWE fans think it could be sold and, if so, how.

I assume you mean what is called a double-leg takedown.

There are a number of reasons - pedantry warning.

  1. This is the most basic takedown in wrestling, football or MMA. you shoot (dive in) and wrap your arms around your opponent’s legs and squeeze - thus disrupting their balance while you surge ahead. This will plant them on their ass and leave you I top position.

Because this is the most basic takedown every MMA fighter knows (to a greater or lesser degree) how to prevent it.

Usually it is by a sprawl <– this gives a cgi demonstration of perfection - but it can also be thwarted by leaning over your opponent and hunching down.

Having leant and hunched you lay elbows and punches down until you fall over or they give up.

  1. Rousey has not trained for the double leg (or single leg) she trained judo - entirely. Judo relies on throws and trips - not shooting. All of her years of training have taught her not to shot in but to work the clinch and get the throw or trip from there.

She is amazingly good at throws and trips. Fucking incredible.

Again, that sounds like a double leg. Easy to do on a mannequin or compliant partner. Not so easy to do with someone that knows how to defend and would rather not get punched / submitted.

Two things:

  1. if her opponent has four points of contacts with the mat (including her feet) or any point of contact if the feet aren’t touching then the fighter is “downed” and you can’t kick or knee to the head.

Under the rules in effect until 01/01/2017 you could not be on your back with your opponent between your legs and kick them with your heels. Now you can but under the rules Rousey fought it would be a foul (not that that matters much in MMA but that is another deal)

  1. Rousey never wanted it to stay on the feet. On the feet means getting hit and her style (judo) is distinctly geared toward no hitting and get to the ground in the best position possible.

If it got to the ground the last thing she’d want to do is escape and get back up. All of her training was get to the ground and work into the best position to secure a choke / bar / lock.

Generally speaking, if you are on your back then you opponent is either on top of you - in guard (think missionary position), side control (both of their legs are to one of your sides while their arms have your neck) or north-south (your legs are facing north theirs are facing south.) I’ve skipped a few variants but this gives you the basic idea.

If your opponent has you in any of these positions it is generally a weak place to be - and they are already “down” so there is no point in trying to take them down.

If you are on your back and they are standing up then you can pretty much count on either the ref calling for a stand-up or you getting what Donald Cerrone called “fuck-you kicks” ie kicks to your exposed thighs, calves, knees until you choose to stand up.

Either way, if you are down then, for the most part, you are trying to avoid damage while working to a better position while your opponent is trying to smash your face or work you to a worse position.

None of Rousey’s training prepared her for this

As to the baseball slide thing… if you see a fighter do this it is because he/she is desperate and grasping at straws.

The closest I’ve ever seen to that was Lesnar v Mir I. Lesnar was thumping Mir. Mir ended up on his back, Lesnar didn’t go down to join him and Mir - out of desperation - grabbed Lesnar’s foot and turned it into a fight ending heel-hook.

But the baseball slide really wouldn’t work.

I guess a sort of (but not really) similar idea has shown up recently. The rolling leg lock <– skip the ads and moved to about 8 seconds into the video.

So basically - to make a long story longer - Rousey lacked the training to do non-judo takedowns and had no experience getting hit. All of her opponents knew to fear the clinch—>armbar so they either rushed in hoping for a one-shot knock out or they hung back until Rousey charged them and forced the clinch.

Holmes beat her by patience and foot work. She didn’t charge Rousey but picked at her with kicks and jabs and when Rousey rushed Holmes stepped aside. By the end of the first round Rousey looked like a drunk running at pillars.

Early in the second round Holmes suckered Rousey into ducking into a body kick. If Rousey hadn’t have ducked into it the kick would have landed on her side - but Rousey fell for it and ducked right into the kick.

KO

Nune took a different tac. Nunez said, “She doesn’t like getting hit so I’m gonna hit her.”

Rather than charging in looking for the one punch she stood in front of Rousey and popped her straight through her guard and into her beak. After that Rousey was done. She stuck around to get hit another dozen or so times but at 48 seconds the ref (Herb Dean - 2nd only to John McCarthy for quality refs) saved her from permanent brain damage and stopped the fight.

So there you go Starving Artist, a way too long answer to what you thought was a simple question :cool:

10

And an excellent answer it was! Thank you!

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The Holmes fight after the (third?) time she had failed to keep Holmes down, she thought "fuck it, I’ll outbox her, and got her clock cleaned. She should have kept trying. Yes there was a chance that Holmes would get her with a KO punch while she was doing that, but the fact was standing up and being presented with a series of hit by Holmes was going to be fatal to her chances regardless.

Against Nunes, she made IIRC one half hearted take down attempt, and when that failed became a boxing match which was guaranteed to lose. The Holmes fight shows a fighter defeated in one bout, the Nunes one looks like a Domestic Violence commercial.

ETA: Zeke in the Nunes fight she did not even attempt much to take it to the ground. She could not have adhered to Amanda’s gameplan if she had been bought off by bookies. (Hyperbole, no suggestion the fight was crooked).

12

The reason I deride Shamrock is simple - he deserves it :slight_smile:

He came out of pancrase (a notoriously fixed league) into the UFC where he met Royce Gracie in round 2 of UFC 1. Gracie made him tap - but the ref didn’t see it. Shamrock had a chance to be decent and he squandered it and made to keep fighting.

Gracie whispered in his ear (I imagine it was something like, “Tap again or next time I break the thing off”) and suddenly Shamrock is tapping again. He knew he lost but he was going to take advantage of poor reffing until he learned the potential consequences and then he quit.

He loses points for the poor sportsmanship and extra points for not having the nuts to follow through with the poor sportsmanship.

He then spent the next 3 or 4 events beating his first round opponent but breaking his hand on the back of their head. Every single time.

He rematched Gracie in UFC 6 (I think) and all he did was stall. There was no offense or attempted offense from Shamrock. All he did was make sure he didn’t lose. Fight ended with a time limit draw.

His fight against Severn was 25 minutes of two guys circling each other. Shamrock did marginally more (I guess) than Severn but neither one did anything throughout the fight.

Once the UFC started into the modern age (around UFC 13) Shamrock did exactly nothing of note - except get his monkey ass handed to him 3 separate times by Tito Ortiz. Not one of the fights was even close.

And he had the brass-plated balls to call himself “the world’s most dangerous man.”

Let’s not forget the Kimbo Slice fight where Kenny managed to injure himself (a cut or concussion I can’t recall) in pre-fight sparring an hour before the fight. Who the fuck does any meaningful sparring right before a fight?

No one?

Cuz they don’t want to get hurt and fuck up the fight. But Kenny Slamcock did - which worked out well for Seth Petrizelli.

And after no fight league or wrestling organization would take him he set up a 1-900 number where you could pay a couple of bucks a minute to “talk to the world’s most dangerous man.” In reality you paid to listen to a tape. If you called… which no one did… because by then everyone knew he was exactly as much of a joke as he showed himself to be with the douche move he pulled against Gracie.

So that’s the source of the derision - at least from me.

I disagree.

Holmes was not masterful by any means but Rousey’s attempts to clinch were clumsy and telegraphed and Holmes sidestepped easily.

The one time Rousey got her down Holmes popped back up and that ended that for Rouseys meaningful offense.

The fight was pretty much Rousey charges at Holmes. Holmes matadors her and hits her a couple of times. The circle, Holmes hits her a few times. Rousey charges again and Holmes side-steps and hits her a few times.

Buy the end of the 1st Rousey was so tired that when she charged she looked like a thrice-drunk sailor assaulting a chain-link fence she was so clumsy.

She didn’t “decide” to box. She didn’t have the stamina to run at the fence anymore and Holmes stubbornly refused to clinch. So I guess she did make a choice - but it was Hobson’s choice.

Holmes led her into what should have been a body kick and Rousey lost a tooth and consciousness.

Again, she had no choice but to fight on the feet. Nunez made it clear she wasn’t going to clinch. Rousey tried to force it with a piddly-ass takedown and failed. And Herb Dean saved Ronda from reconstructive surgery.

The fight was over as soon as Nunez landed the straight right directly between Rousey’s guard.

Her idiot fucking coach Edmond Tarverdyan got it into his head that he could make her a boxer. Then he got it into her head that he could make her a boxer. Then they both got it in their heads that she was a boxer.

She tried to “show a different look” based on her new-found putative prowess and she paid for it.

You’re right. Nunez couldn’t have asked for a more compliant punching bag and any coach worth the name (Tarverdyan is not worth the name) would have seen that coming a year and 10 miles off.

If I could wave my MMA wand and turn back time I’d still have Rousey fight Nunez but I’d have had her spend the 13 months at Greg Jackson’s gym. With Jackson doing gameplan and Mike Winkeljohn coaching striking and striking defense it would have been a totally different fight.

I’m not saying she would have won - but she would have done better than the 48 second embarrassment Tarverdyan set her up for.

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