Replace the “not aware of” in “because they’re not aware of the “issues” that make people vegetarians” with “not properly educated on”.
I hit submit without thinking about it and it had already processed before I could hit stop. Sorry about that.
As a farm family, we were always viewed as the murderers themselves. This kind of extremism exudes ignorance, so the whole “category” of people are tagged as extremists. This “blanketing” goes both ways.
Frankly, I’ve always thought that the widest variety of diet was the healthiest, so it’s okay to eat whatever comes by as long as there is variety.
What troubles me though, is that people think it’s gross to eat meat. Why is it that the farmers, who grew up seeing animals slaughtered, don’t think of it as gross, but those who see it second-hand are the ones who think of it as “icky?” Should those who are experienced with it be the ones who find it gross (if it really is gross, which I don’t think it is). To those who do find it gross, I’d like to point out that there are all kinds of gross things not seen by the naked eye, deal with it. Wimps.
Maybe the farmers’ culture has something to do with it. The typical American agricultural-family culture has a lot to do with meat and the raising of animals to provide meat. However, most vegetarians are middle-to-upper class, most of whom never have seen a cow slaughtered. Their cultures are a little different - thus, their views are different. Nothing wrong with either way, but I would probably find it much harder to be the lactovegetarian that I am on a farm.
Maybe it’s not vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian. Maybe it’s just certain people being stupid. I’ve learned in my long years in high school that some people, if they want to enough, will find any reason to give others a hard time. That trait is independent of others - you can have a nonviolent vegan Gandhist who just smugly giggles in gloating when around non-vegetarians.
My entire problem with vegetarians is not that they are vegetarians, but that nine times out of ten the decision to become vegetarian has been based on ignorance and they insist on sharing their ignorance with me.
Several people I know are vegetarians for moral/religious reasons, and that I have no problem with. However most vegetarians have a nasty habit of saying either:
"I’m a vegetarian because eating meat damages the environment’
or
'I have a moral objection to killing animals to feed myself (no problem wiht that part) and being a vegetarian kills less animals.
or
‘A vegetarian diet is healthier than an omnivorous diet’
All those staements have been shown to be so much rubbish. I have no more objection to vegetarians than I have to Moslems, but if someone tells me that they’re a Moslem because being a Pagan damages the environment or that being Moslem destroys less rainforest or that a Moslem lifestyle reduces their risk of getting cancer then they’d better be prepared to back it up. All else aside the first two reasons imply that my decision to be meatatarian means I don’t care about the environemnt or killing animals.
That has been my experience of why people get into flaming arguments with vegetarians. Never have I had someone say ‘I choose to eat meat because it stops the Venusians from invading France’ or similar. If they did I’d feel justified in tactfully pointing out there delusion, or at least completely ignoring the comment.
I’ve never out of the blue told someone that I’m a meatatrain and then given my reasons. I’ve made a conscious decision about my dietary habits based on concern for the environment and my health. That decision is backed up with far more facts and logic than any vegetarian that I’ve so far met. I’ve never felt the need to share that decision with people who didn’t care.
I think the OP is wrong in some of its assertions. I’ve seen folk who would let everyone vote for who they want, but I’ve known far fewer who would let someone get away with saying 'I voted Republican because Republicans don’t torture as many animals. As many people would object to that statement as would object to the equivalent statement being linked to vegetarians.
I’ve see folk who would let everyone worship where they like, but I’ve known far fewer who would let someone get away with saying 'I’m a practising Jehovahs Witness because being a Catholic causes health problems.
I’ve seen folk who would let everyone go out with anyone they like, but far fewer who would allow someone to say 'I only go out with Black/White people because interracial couples kill less whales.
In my experiance at east the problem is that vegetarians often base their reasons for becoming vegetarians on ignorance and then insist on sharing those reasons with the world at large. There is no logical reason for being vegetarian, that’s OK, but if you try to suggets that tehir is and then imply taht others are illogical for not being evgetarian of course you’re going to get fireworks.
Well, I’m a vegetarian. Was vegan for a while, but must confess to eating a bit of dairy every now and again lately. I think of my diet as a “no flesh diet” at this point. I gradually stopped eating animals and their various parts during my mid-twenties as I became a bit more educated about nutrition, as well as the the larger context our diet choices are in. I think this is why some veg-heads become so militant. Like anyone who is passionate about a cause, when you know stuff that is largely suppressed and or ignored by most, it’s darn frustrating.
Eat whatever you like, I’d say. But don’t deny the truth of the overall picture. Watch “Cow at My Table”, or visit a slaughterhouse to understand the full picture, and then if you can still sit down and enjoy that slab of steak or burger, do so with clarity of conscience and mind.
Remember that it’s a global, capitalist world at this point. EVERY DECISION WE MAKE when we spend those bits of paper called money have global repercussions. It is overwhelming, and karmic purity is impossible because of the systemic foundations at this point. But to at least attempt some kind of mindfulness about it cannot hurt. I strive for balance (ie: I’ll eat dairy now and again, but will only purchase organic dairy from local producers). No one can do everything, but everyone can do something.
To those who never thought about the larger picture, I offer the following. This is probably a bit of what those militant vegans are on about.
It’s a fact that:
on hunger:
- a child starves to death every 2 seconds.
- 60 million people worldwide will die of starvation this year.
- 60 million people could be fed if Americans alone reduced their meat consumption by 10%.
- There are 243 million people in America.
- 1.3 billion people could be fed with the grain and soybeans now allotted to feeding US livestock.
- 20% of the corn grown in the US is eaten by people.
- 80% of the corn grown in the US is eaten by livestock.
- 95% of oats grown in the US is eaten by livestock.
- 95% of the protein in grain is wasted by its cycle through livestock. (This means that when you eat grain directly, you get 100% of the protein in it. When you eat meat that comes from an animal which ate grain, you only get 5% of the protein from the grain.)
- 20,000 pounds of potatoes can be grown on 1 acre.
- 0 pounds of beef can be produced on 1 acre.
- 56% of US farmland has been devoted to the production of beef.
- 16 pounds of grain and soybean are needed to produce 1 pound of beef.
on environment:
- the cause of global warming is the greenhouse effect.
- the primary cause of the greenhouse effect is the emissions from fossil fuels.
- a meat-free diet requires 50 times less fossil fuels in its production than a meat-centered diet.
- 75% of US topsoil has, to date, been lost.
- 85% of US topsoil loss is directly related to the raising of livestock.
- 260 million acres of US forest have been cleared for crop-land to produce a meat-centered diet.
- feedlots and slaughterhouses are both major polluters of rivers and streams. Filling them with poisonous residues and animal wastes, 250,000 pounds of animal excrement is produced every second in the US and there are no sewage systems to treat any of it.
- 200 million pounds of meat are annually imported by the US from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama. (This means that the government and companies in the US have made business deals with governments and companies in these countries. Instead of growing food to feed their own people, the countries produce meat to send to the US, and many people in their own country starve or suffer malnutrition.)
- 55 square feet of tropical rainforest is consumed in ever quarter-pound hamburger.(This means that rainforests are clearcut and then planted with grass for raising livestock to create beef for fast-food restaurants.)
- 1000 species per year go extinct due to the destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses.
on cancer:
- women who eat meat 4 times a week are more likely to develop breast cancer than women who eat meat less than once a week.
- women who eat eggs daily are 3 times more likely to develop breast cancer than women who eat eggs less than once a week.
- fatal ovarian cancer is 3 times more likely to develop in women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week than it is in women who eat eggs less than once a week.
- women who eat butter and cheese 3 or more times a week are 3 times more likely to develop breast cancer than women who eat butter and cheese less than once a week.
- the risk of fatal prostate cancer is increased 3.6 times for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily rather than sparingly or not at all.
on natural resources:
- more than half the water in the US is used for raising animals for food.
- the amount of water used in the production of one average cow would be sufficient to float a destroyer.
- 25 gallons of water is needed to produce a pound of wheat.
- 2500 gallons of water is needed to produce a pound of meat.
- if the water used in the meat industry was not subsidized by the taxpayer, the cost of a common hamburger would be $35 a pound. (This means that the government gives much of the taxes that people pay to the meat industry instead of putting money towards things like health care or education. By giving the meat industry money to cover the cost of meat production, the prices for meat stay lower.)
- if water was no longer subsidized, the cost of one pound of protein beefsteak would be $89.
- the world’s known oil reserves would last 13 years if every human at a meat-centered diet.
- the world’s known oil reserves would last 260 years if every human no longer ate meat.
- 6.8 million barrels of oil are imported daily into the US.
- 34.5% of fossil fuel energy is returned as food energy by the most efficient factory farming of meat.
- 328% of fossil fuel energy is returned from the least efficient plant food.
- 33% of the world’s raw materials are consumed by the US to produce its present meat-centered diet.
on cholesterol:
- there are 125 medical schools in the US.
- 30% of these schools require a course in nutrition.
- the average US physician, during 4 years of medical school, receives 2.5 hours of nutrition training.
- the most common cause of death in the US is by heart attack.
- in the US, someone dies of a heart attack every 45 seconds.
- the average US man is at a 50% risk of death by heart attack.
- the average US man who avoids the meat-centered diet is at a 15% risk of death by heart attack.
- the risk of a heart attack is reduced by 9% if you reduce your consumption of meat, eggs and dairy by 10%.
- if you reduce your consumption by 50%, your risk is reduced by 90%.
- meat, egg and dairy industries claim you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is “normal”.
- your risk of death by a disease caused by clogged arteries while your blood cholesterol is “normal” is over 50%.
on antibiotics:
- 55% of US antibiotics are fed to livestock.
- in 1960, 13% of staphylococci infections were resistant to penicillin.
- in 1988, 91% of these infections were resistant to penicillin.
- the European Economic Community, in response to this rise in infectious resistance, has banned the routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock.
- the US Meat and Pharmaceutical industries have maintained their full and complete support of routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock. (They do this because they make more money than if they didn’t.)
in the North American diet:
- grains supply 1% of pesticide residues.
- fruits supply 4% of pesticide residues.
- vegetables supply 6% of pesticide residues.
- dairy products supply 23% of pesticide residues.
- meat supplies 55% of pesticide residues.
- the breast milk of mothers who eat meat is 35 times more contaminated with pesticide than that of mothers who do not eat meat.
- the USDA tells us that “meat is inspected”.
- less than 0.00004% of the animals slaughtered for food are inspected for residual toxic chemicals including dioxin and DDT.
on factory farms:
- in the US this year alone, 37 and 1/2 million cattle, 85 and 1/2 million pigs, 5 and 1/2 million sheep, 242 million turkeys and 4 billion 147 million chickens will be slaughtered for the taste of their flesh.
- 500 thousand animals are slaughtered every hour for meat in the US.
- the animals raised for food are artificially inseminated, fed growth hormones, overcrowded, chained and caged. They are kicked, prodded, electroshocked, dragged and finally transported to their death.
- raising livestock is a competitive business; being humane means “costs will go up”.
- the cost to render and animal unconscious with a “captive bolt-pistol” before its slaughter is 1 cent.
- the reason given by the meat industry for not using the “captive bolt-pistol”: “too expensive”.
on protein:
- a vegetarian diet promotes superior health, endurance and longevity.
- animal products have 3 nutritional disadvantages: they contain too much protein, too much fat and no fiber.
- do not believe the protein myth; it was based on a study done by the meat and dairy industries to rats, animals who require 1000 times more protein than humans.
As citizens of the richest nation in the world, our personal consumption, including what we choose to eat every day, shapes the entire planet. To learn more, read John Robbin’s “Diet for a New America”.
Me, I’m vegetarian. I can’t stand “preachy” vegetarians.
Did the vegan thing for a while but concluded it didn’t make any sense.
Years ago, I was at a party where someone had accidentally invited a self-righteous vegetarian. Since we were at a party, and were supposed to be having a good time, I joked:
The guy went off the rails, and started frothing at the mouth about how it was morally wrong to eat meat under any circumstances. Apparently, he missed the joke. People started drifting away, leaving me to deal with the loonie. It was at that moment that I realize where these people come from-- They’re Fundie’s with no religious affiliation.
I can’t comprehend why people fight about dietary choice. I’m happy with my diet. I’m not about to try and “convert” anyone. The facts are out there, and grown ups can draw there own conclusions. For what it’s worth, if I found beef more appealling that say, spicy braized wheat gluten, I might overlook the hormones, the blood-oxydizing agents, and the steer’s suffering, and eat the damned stuff.
grown-ups can draw their own conclusions. How mortifying.
Satori, (love the name, by the way), is that book title that you listed at the bottom a cite? If not, please cite the statistics that you have posted.
I really don’t mean to be evil, I don’t like it when people quote statistics at me without telling me where they’re from.
Eat what you want. Let others eat what they want. The killing of animal for food is as natural as anything can be. Too bad if you don’t like it, it’s perfectly acceptable in society today, so I’m happy.
I do not eat vegetables, so I’m the last person to comment on another person’s dietary choice.
Oh, jeez, our first born-again. I’m surprised it took this long.
Satori wrote
Crap. You are neither educated nor balanced. And I’m not even going to touch those nutty statistics.
And since you’re happy to replace words in the name of “honesty” (meat becomes flesh or animals), I think it’s only fair that I use that same honesty to describe you as abnormal and unbalanced.
Finally, I find it mildly telling that you try to distance yourself from (as you describe them) militant veg-heads. I especially love that line that you’re balanced, since you eat dairy products.
To answer the OP, I think at least some of the antagonism results from people who post claptrap like Satori’s above. Nothing personal on Satori, but the whole thing was a mishmash of unsubstantiated nonsense.
It’s fine to say “who cares what other people eat”; in fact, that’s how I believe it should be. But then we get people saying, writing books, posting on message boards, whatever, this stuff saying vegetarianism is somehow “better”.
So which is it?, a)live and let live (i.e. eat whatever you want, and shut up about it), or b)vegetarianism is better?
If most people choose a)there wouldn’t be an issue. Unfortunately, some people on both sides choose their equivalent of b).
When vegetarians quote absolute nonsense like our buddy Satori there, it reminds me of pot smokers who feel it should be legalized because it makes such good rope. Now you know that if they weren’t a pot smoker they couldn’t care less about it’s other uses. Likewise, if you weren’t a vegetarian, you couldn’t care less about how many anti-biotics are used in the farming industry. You find something you like and then look for evidence to back it up. And if you can’t find evidence, you make it up.
When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
To be honest, I’ve seen a lot of these people fight back and forth, but it is always instigated by the crazy animal rights activists with their extreme views and ways. It seems that was for any issue. If there’s an organization behind it, they’re going to be a pain in the butt. I have vegetarian friends who can’t stand PETA for example. They’re obnoxious prudes for the most part.
I think Satori and people like him/her should donate all their food to the starving if they’re concerned about it. Karma shmarma. I’ve know people go in and out of that western philosophy faze, its no better than other beliefs, everything has weird crap in it.
And yeah, you can get more than a pound of beef off one acre. It takes 1 acre to raise a horse. Cows regurgitate all the time, so they don’t take as muhc land up because they’re buzy chewing up their puke.
Bill H.,milroyjabsolute/unsubstantiated nonsense.
Can you please prove this? If you have facts to back up your claims then I have no qualms, but please show me how those statistics are nonsense.
Satori
[QUOTE
-snip nonsense-
**[/QUOTE]
“yeah but bacon is good,porkchops aregood”
-John Travolta (Pulp Fiction)
Satori is the prefect example as to why Vegetarians and Omnivores get into it.
We like meat, we eat it, militant vegetarians have to prove through unsubstantiated claims that meat is bad.
I feel sorry for the rest of the vegetarians on this and other boards that while they don’t agree with eating meat they keep their stats and their noses out of my 'fridgerator. Those are the nice vegetarians, those are the ones that I hug with enthusiasm because they accept my decision as much as I accept their decision.
The argument about cruelty or the gross-out factor is just an emotional reaction which often guides people to become vegetarians. This really bothers me. Go ahead and show me footage of a real slaughterhouse, I’d like to see how they do it in large numbers. Are you going to cry if I show you how they abuse and slice up tomatoes? We (my family) used to butcher cows by hand and only one at a time, so I got to see how it was done,a nd I also learned a lot about he anatomy of the animal. Would you refuse open-heart surgery because it looks gross? Aren’t you glad doctors don’t think that way? It’s not very well-thought-out when a person refuses to eat something because it’s gross. Look, they are cows, not humans, stop equating the two and stop looking at others like they are serial killers because their diet isn’t governed on whether their meal once “had a face.” The peak of ignorance is having pity only on things that reach your standard of being “cuddly” enough to love.
Cows don’t really talk when we aren’t there, and Bambi was just a fictional character. The flood of PETA propaganda only worsens the problem as well, and makes workers in labs and slaughterhouses laugh at their absurdity. This particular reason for an alteration of one’s diet is ignorance because its distant from what’s really going on. Some people have gone so far to accuse farmers of “stealing” milk from cows, never researching the truth enough to see that cows will come to farmers when they want to be milked (yes, it’s unpleasant not to be milked).
Tony Montana: :rolleyes:
I’m a long-time vegetarian. I dislike PETA and the other militant types as much or more than anyone. I don’t have an answer to the OP, it’s something that I’ve wondered about myself.
I disagree that it’s the vegetarian that usually starts it. I never get on to a meat-eater about their diet, unless they start with me first. And someone always will. If I get a little snarky after hearing comments like the one above, for the umpteenth million time, or having a piece of meat waved in front of my face, or worse yet, over my plate, well, that’s just human nature.
Actually, it would be Satori’s job-he made the claims-it is his responsibility to back them up.