That bolded part makes my point. Since too many guys don’t get something as simple as ‘no means no’ then something else must be done. It is not difficult to understand in the abstract, but in reality it still fails. According to the cite several posts up it is not failing as much as it used to.
**TriPolar **why can’t men treat a whispered no like a real no what is stopping them.
Why can’t they do that.
This is a question for you.
That suggestion was offered by the other side, not by the “no means no” side.
Your question has nothing to do with any of my posts, so I will have to assume that is the position you are taking. So you answer, why? Or better yet, start your own thread where you can continue the imaginary conversation that you somehow believe I am privy to.
I feel like the subject has changed here. I myself am discussing what a man should do given various scenarios involving use of the word “no.” You’re now talking, it seems, instead, about how to lower the incidence of date rape. A fine thing to talk about, and certainly related to what I (and we in this thread AFAICT) were talking about, but, not what I was talking about.
I would have asked you, now, what your evidence is that “no means no” isn’t working, but I see that’s been addressed.
I would also have asked you what alternative approach you think should be taken–what should we be telling men instead?–but I’m not sure at this point whether you think an alternative should be followed given the recent statistical revelation.
Anyway, I’m talking about what a man should do, you’re talking about what we should tell men. I strenuously disagreed with Shodan and others about what a man should do, because many of them were saying that various things are permissible, which are in fact not permissible.
See this is the thing about changed subjects again. TriPolar, the rest of us are talking about what is permissible or impermissible for the man in scenarios like the ones you’re discussing. You’ve apparently been discussing something related but distinct. It has been difficult to see your point because we’ve all been assuming you were trying to discuss what we’re discussing.
I’m not sure what should be told to men, which is why I veered off on this topic, taking the chance that it wouldn’t head in the direction it initially did. I do know that with my own sons I took care to explain things to them in great detail, and compare the effects of what rape is to the effect a false accusation of rape would have on them. I did so using stern and explicit language. My sons are not idiots so success was not so difficult. I didn’t expect they would have to be the ones saying ‘no’ so often either. But I know now and have known many young men who are too stupid and/or immature and/or exhibit enough sociopathic tendency that they would do anything they thought they could get away with. That is what troubles me about this topic.
Ok, you’re just doing this on purpose now.
Yeah, of course I did. I think she does a good job explaining the topic.
Just because “no means no” isn’t enough to stop every single male on the planet from raping doesn’t mean it has zero effectiveness. I mean, the “smoking kills” campaign hasn’t completely eliminated smoking either, and people still die in car wrecks because they don’t wear seatbelts. Should we wring our hands over this? Or should we accept that not everything is for everyone, and other strategies are needed to affect change in the sociopaths?
Like others I’m curious what you think might be a better alternative. Correct me if I’m wrong, but based on your earlier posts, you seem to think a problem is that women often aren’t unequivocal enough in declining sex. They sometimes say “no” while doing X or Y that strongly suggests they want it. But that implies that you think the highly stupid, immature, and sociopathic men whom you’re worried about are the victims of unfortunate misunderstandings when they end up raping.
Don’t know where this idea is coming from, though. Any woman who has been the recipient of unwanted male attention that has bordered on harrassment if not surpassed it knows that these kind of men won’t accept no even when you’re coupling it with insults and are red in the face. These are the kind of guys who know you’re gonna say no and are prepared to ignore it for as long as it takes the game to get old to them.
The problem with these guys isn’t that they are confused by “no”. The problem is that they are only interested in getting what they want from the exchange; what she wants is irrelevant. They treat woman like slot machines. Pull the lever enough times and she might pay out.
This is not what I mean at all. I’m not some stereotype, if you want to know what I think just ask me, don’t try to paint me in some one else’s image.
That is exactly what I am saying.
Well, what are you saying? Multiple people have asked you to clarify your position, but you have yet to do so.
TriPolar, all of your posts in this thread have emphasized ways in which a spoken “no” can be unclear. It is very difficult to read your posts as trying to say much else other than that guys can be confused by the ways women say “no” on many occasions. I don’t doubt you in your last post when you say that’s not what you were trying to say. But TriPolar, it’s pretty much what you did say, whether you meant to or not.
I don’t think you’ve anywhere typed words that have to do with what is motivating the guys and what their attitude is toward the women they are interacting with (though now you say that’s what you’ve been talking about all along). Your posts have been pretty clear actually, at least once the fact that we were talking about two different things became apparent. But the thing is, they’ve been very clearly not saying what you now said they said, and saying what you now say they did not say.
You need to compare it to the rates of decline for other types of crime over that same period before attributing to a cause which is specific to sexual assault.
I keep saying it. ‘No means no’ isn’t registering with some men the way you would like it to. I don’t know what the ‘rape culture’ is supposed to be, but whatever it might be there are a lot of men contributing to a problem by considering it all to be a joke. They’re doing what men often do, inflate their egos by acting like jackasses, most of them meaning nothing by it, but they provide the environment for the real assholes to feel comfortable in. Some of these guys may be planning and plotting evil acts, and I don’t know anything that will remove their motivations, but there’s always a group on the borderline, stupid, confused, whatever, and they’ll do the wrong thing in the end because they’re not trying to do the right thing. The world is full of people who will lie, cheat, and/or steal as long as they can get away with it. Some of them are doing it with malice aforethought, and some are doing it with no thought at all, and they will continue until they get caught. I think the thoughtless ones are not beyond reach, and we need to find a way to reach them. When jokes about rape are no longer cool among buddies then those who are too stupid to understand the humor will have less room to breathe. When guys don’t always assume an accusation of rape is fabricated they may spend a moments more thought. And when they think their chances of getting caught aren’t negligible they’ll begin to control themselves.
I’m really tired now, and probably shouldn’t be posting, but I’m trying to point out the ways that people can ignore the clear morality here. Saying some thing isn’t the same thing as someone hearing that thing. ‘No’ should always mean ‘no’, but for some reason it doesn’t for some. Simply repeating ‘no means no’ isn’t going to make it work for those people, and I’m trying to explain (unsuccessfully) that there are reasons for that other than pure sociopathy. And if people would discuss that in more depth instead of repeating the memes then maybe it’s possible to improve things.
Also Frylock my friend, surely you’ve noticed I don’t tend to say things in the manner many people would like. I don’t mind the initial misinterpretation, which is surely my own fault, as long as people are willing to talk and hash it out rather than descend into insults and innuendo.
Quoted for truth. It really doesn’t get any simpler than that. If those types are determined to push ahead no matter what for their goal, tattooing “no” on your forehead and wearing a chastity belt won’t be enough. It’s not unclear. They’re just sorry assholes.
Okay. Do you have something in mind, or are you just disappointed in current efforts because they have not magically succeeded in turning all deliberate rapists into cotton candy and all capricious, uncaring youths into Hannukah gelt?
Rape incidence has decreased, period. Doesn’t matter why it has exactly. There are likely a whole host of reasons for this trend, but if someone wants to say a specific anti-rape strategy is not working, it would behoove them to supply some data that demonstrates that.
But it’s probably registering with a whole lot of them. In fact, I’m gonna go out on that limb and say that proportionately more men nowadays understand what consent looks like than they ever have in human history.
We already know some jackasses are going to be jackasses regardless of what we do. But if we can prevent people from turning into jackasses by shifting the conversation away from “consent is implied unless she screams bloody murder” to something less self-serving to horny selfish men, then we’re doing the right thing.
It is not as difficult as you’re making it out to be.