What is sexuality? Or Psychoanalyze this!

First: If you don’t want to read possibly explicit material, I’d recommend you leave the thread now because I dunno where this is gonna run right now. I’m typing it completely on the fly.

Second: I dunno whether any of you can offer valuable insights into my situation, but that would be appreciated. Mainly I’m typing this out to get it situated in my head. I need to figure some things out.

As many of you know, I self-identify as a gay (kinsey 5) man. However, many of you might not know that I’ve only been dealing with the issue of my sexuality for a little over a year. Before that I ducked and avoided the complexities involved. To this day, I’m still wobbling back and forth on the whole thing.

See, I’ve never actually been extremely intimate with someone face-to-face. It probably revolves around childhood conflicts I had, but its currently throwing me for a loop around this while thing. This is the first time I’ve really tried to put things into words, so excuse me if I ramble excessively.

What is sexual attraction?

When I see a beautiful woman, I get extremely nervous and flustered inside. My eye keeps getting drawn back to them, and I’m always aware of them in my peripheral vision. On the flip side, much of me wants to run and hide if said woman shows interest in me. I also don’t (ahem) get nearly as aroused down below as I do with a guy. Is this sexual attraction? Or do I just have a rather extreme shyness around women?

When I see a beautiful man, I remain much cooler than I do with a woman. My heart races a bit, but not nearly as much. My eye is drawn towards them, but its much more under my own control. I’m not nearly as aware of them peripherally. On this flipside, I also feel much more drawn to them, much more desire to be near them or strike up a conversation with them. Depending on my mood, I can also be much more aroused just by their presence in my proximity. Part of me, regardless of arousal, pegs them as “cute” or “hot” and I find it much easier to point them out to others as such, whereas its difficult for me to speak up about a woman who grabs my attention (and I have friends who I identified as bisexual to, so thats not exactly the issue).

Every time I think I have things figured out, I get the rug pulled out from under me and its put me in a position where I’m afraid to get involved with anyone for fear of being messed up and end up hurting them. Thats just not fair. But how am I going to hammer these problems down if I don’t? It feels so much like a catch-22.

I honestly don’t know if anyone here can help me out, but I’d love it if you did. Otherwise, maybe staring at what I typed for a while will help something sink in. Thanks for reading my rambling drivel.

Sounds like discomfort with women and strong attraction to men.

And yes, after reading it, this is rather garbage for structure and form. Let that be a lesson for you, ladies and gentlemen: do not get in from a hard night of karaoke around 1AM, take a sleeping pill at 3AM, go to bed at 4AM, and then wake up at 9:30AM. It leads only to such masterpieces as the above…

Kibbosh. Your writing is fine.

I’d say, don’t pin your hopes on whatever people here post, and worry more on developing deep friendships than relationships right now. You mention your fear of intimacy for the other person’s sake, but you probably need to be aware of your own comfort first. Otherwise, regardless of how well you pull off a “relationship face” (to coin a phrase), it won’t be an honest one and, well, I’m betting you can guess where that will lead in the long run.

To paraphrase Jack Cohn: Relationships are like having a really shitty job, but digging the people you work with. Try regularly relating to a few trusted others on a true and deep level first (until it feels natural to you), and intimacy later.

Of course, what do I know… I’m 34 and single. :smiley:

My own psychology being a questionable experiment in central planning, I can only talk fables of the reconstruction, I suppose.

I take it as a good sign that you’re identifying, exploring, and analyzing your own feelings. And while you may be considering an attempt to change, to grow emotionally to the point where additional capabilities become available, I would recommend against the arbitrary imposition or order on your emotions. That approach seems to ultimately isolate an individual and render him socially … sort of unviable. Or at least unskilled.

If you want to incoporate sexuality, and intimacy into your life, and your interactions with others, then I second the Zenham’s suggestion to begin with a close friendship first. After all, I recognize your quandary:

  1. A person that you love is important, and you would never want to hurt them.
  2. If you enter a relationship, and are inexperienced, or are imperfect in your actions, you may hurt them, either unitentionally or by doing something intentional which had consequences that you did not know would be hurtful.
  3. By entering into a loving relationship, you create a situation in which hurting a certain person is entirely unacceptable, but at the same time, possibly likley.
  4. So, a loving relationship is a bad idea.

Logical simplicity. I’ve used that excuse before- and also the similar “My current commitments would preclude spending a lot of time with the one I’d love and thus wouldn’t be treating the loved one right but a loved one is by definition one to be treated right” Neihter argument really got me anywhere but lonesome.

The sad fact: Our psychology is not only queerer than we suppose, it’s queerer than we can suppose. We have emotions, and we are capable of hurting people, even by accident. Real people, like you and me, can’t be pinned down and defined any more than real particles can. In the end, you have to work with uncertainty and with probability. You have to say:

“I can’t guarantee that I will know what I’m doing, nor can I guarantee that I won’t hurt people, even people that I don’t want to hurt, by just being imperfect, inexperienced, and clumsy old me.”

You can try to plan out ahead how to be the perfect relationship member, but your necessarily incomplete knowledge of yourself, your partner, and coming events will make it an inadequate plan. And you won’t be able to just be you, because you’ll be trying so hard to be He Who Does No Harm.

Ever notice how everybody starts off with a string of failed relationships before they find someone to settle down with? I used to think I could get around that by just avoiding romance and intimacy until I had matured beyond that point, and until I had learned to be the perfect companion. But the school of human interaction works almost exlusively by the learn-by-doing method. Theories and self-imposed behaviour always fall short of their goal of accurately guiding you in all situations.

So, accept how you feel, even if internal contradictions are part of it. Then, begin building a close friendship with someone who you think is worth being close to. It may take time, and it may not turn out great for the first while. But it will provide experience and build confidence for later, more ambitious endeavours, like a romance. Plus, you may end up with a good friend, who can be both pleasant company, and an aid when you have problems like this in the future. You don’t have to leap in quickly; you can take it slow, going as you feel comfortable.

Someday, when you’ve been able to get closer to someone, or perhaps more than one person, you can go a little further, and act on a feeling of romantic nature. Having the confidence and experience built by a successful friendship, you’ll know, a little better than now, how to ease into and work within a relationship.

Now, I shouldn’t really advise you any further. I’m still stuck at the stage of building a friendship, and of wondering what to make of little hints of sexual feelings that come around every now and then. I can’t tell you if this strategy will work, I can’t tell you if love will actually come in a recognizable form, but I do feel less lonely now having made a friend, and with that relationship continuting to evolve and expand in its closeness and honesty.

Romance may come. But it’ll never get its hands on you if you logic your way out of it. You are NASA. You can’t get to the moon in one shot; you have to toy around with LEO capsules first, learning the mechanics and the human factors of the endeavour. You have to try a suborbital shot first, then try a mission where you orbit a few times. Eventually, you’ll be able to dock two spacecraft in orbit, and to sustain them like that. Someday, a moon shot. Someday, Mars. Test pilots will be injured. Astronauts may die. But is it worth it to you to try? The earth, and your own mind, are comfortable homes to hide in. But the rewards of exploring other places and of touching other hearts and minds are worth the trouble, the risk, and the assured occasional failure along the way. Or so I’m told. I haven’t worked up the courage, the experience, or the technology (ie: I haven’t fallen in love, that I can tell) to try it yet.

Sadly, you can’t build a tower to the moon. You have to ride a flaming rocketship through risky, threatening environments to get there. Apollo One may come, but so may Apollo Eleven. (Heck, you may even settle down and build a nice shuttle program some day. And maybe have a space station or two running around.) You don’t know what you’re doing, but you won’t until you do. So do. But caustiously, using all your knowledge and your best guesses to minimize the risks you know about.
That’s my take on risking relationships when you have little experience and only poorly-understood and conflicting feelings.

As for how you feel about women and men: I can’t say for sure. It sounds like some nervousness at women, and if I knew you better (well, at all, I suppose) I might have a better guess at why. If it were me, it might be perceived pressure, and fear of feeling, or of having my feelings perceived by others. (Don’t look interested in case she’s offended, or worse, in case something starts that could snowball into a relationship) But that’s me. And for the men: maybe you’re more comfortable with men because they’re less different (you beng a man and all). Perhaps women have always had an aura of separateness, and so it’s just easier to be comforetable with men. Maybe, when you were a child, the girls played away from the boys, the girls acted differently from the boys, and there was always a big deal made about getting close to girls because, of course, being friendly with a girl meant you must be in love with her. (wolfstu loves Jennifer! wolfstu loves Jennifer!) But boys never love boys, after all (even if you learned to the contrary after those early imprints were made). But again, that might be why I would feel things like that. I don’t know for sure why you do… but with some investigation, you might be able to figure it out. I guess the best thing you can do is some thinking, some social interaction, and some tyring to let yourself just feel those feelings, and act on them, if you figure out how you want to.

Good luck working all of this out. I hope this helped. Or at least, wasn’t hurtful. Opening up always carries that risk, after all.
[sub](Well, if that wasn’t the pot trying to tell the kettle how to get less black. I’m surprised I could type that, or even deign to attempt an explanation of what I haven’t worked up the courage or the wisdom to do.)[/sub]

FWIW …

since being around real people seems to be cranking up your anxiety levels to the point where you lose social function, why not try an inanimate experiment, so to speak? find something (magazine, website, whatever) that has pictures of attractive people, male and female. look them over. which ones do you find yourself studying in depth? which ones are the basis of any little fantasies? which ones do you find more arousing overall?

count up your tally. are there more pictures of men than women that wind up ringing your chimes, or vice versa?

when you dream, do you ever see yourself with a partner? are you comfortable with that partner, whichever gender they may be? or does some sort of self-censoring kick in, anything from the feeling “this is wrong, i’m not supposed to be doing this”, to the dream storyline causing the two of you to separate. if any of the above has come up, you’ll need to think very carefully about what the images are REALLY telling you. what “happens” in your dreams might actually be less important than how you feel about those actions.

why is it only “beautiful” women that make you lose your cool? do you have a sliding scale of discomfort – if a woman is plain or unattractive, you’re perfectly fine around her, but the better she looks, the more anxious you get? don’t really hot-looking guys get you nervous?

guess that will teach you to ever give my parlor-psychologist-side a chance to break out.

First I’d like to thank y’all for actually reading that crud at the top of the page. Secondly, thanks to Zenham and wolfstu for sharing their advice.

Finally…

I’ve tried that. It still gives me contradictory answers. Attractive women get my heart racing, but not so much the nether regions. Attractive men are the reverse. Its like my head has split reactions with my crotch.

I don’t dream of myself with anyone at the moment.

Well I still get kinda nervous around strangers in general, so even plain-looking strangers make me a little gun-shy. From that baseline, the more attractive she is the more I wanna get at a distance to her. Hot guys… no. Not really, unless they’re also intimidating to me (the hefty jocks still freak me out). I act differently around them, this I know from observation. I tend to smile more at eye contact and feel rather happier. Its much less gut-inspired and more subtle.

Well, Priam, you actually sound a bit like myself in a way. I am gay, but if I am around really good looking women, I can get rather uncomfortable. I think with me, the reason is because if the woman looks really good, I just get self conscious since I perceive myself as more average, and am trying to avoid sending any mixed signals or anything since I’m not sexually attracted to her.

It’s odd, and hard to explain clearly.

As for men, if I see a cute guy, I will usually get the “Wow, he’s cute!” feeling, as opposed to the more platonic attraction I will have towards a really attractive woman.

I actually think that the reason I even pay attention to women in the first place, is from when I was closeted to all of my friends, and felt a need to be able to recognize and point out attractive women, and the fact that I still notice is a bit of habit from before.

Sexuality is a really hard thing to wrap ones mind around, because just when you think you have everything sorted out, something will come and throw you for a loop. I first started thinking seriously about my sexuality 4 years ago, and still I tend to be unsure of some things. Sexuality is just a fluid thing, and it will take you some time to figure things out.

And don’t be afraid to try your hand at a relationship. So long as you are honest with the person, I don’t see it being a problem. Of course this is coming from someone with rather limited experience in relationships, so take any advice of mine with a grain of salt.

I didn’t figure out what direction I was going sexuality-wise until I was 28 or so. I say “or so” because when the final realization finally started kicking in, I fought it a little and I got a little messy until I was almost 30…

At any rate, Priam, I’m not sure what you feel isn’t completely right and natural. I can say this about myself - I can truly appreciate a beautiful female, but I’d never even consider the idea of getting intimate with one (eew, icky poo!) But that doesn’t stop me from wondering and looking upon the visage of a comely woman and having a little smile. Carrie-Anne Moss in tight black vinyl or leather or whatever that was, on the back on a Ducati 996 in The Matrix: Reloaded? Yup, BIG smile! :slight_smile: (OK, yeah, it was probably the motorcycle…)

I had my first experiences with males at a fairly early age - while I was still in Jr. High School, in fact. I found out early on that I liked it, but societal norms are sometimes hard to overcome when you’re 15, so I had a couple of girlfriends in High School, and in college, a lady I was spending time with and I were actually talking about getting married. Well, we were until it became apparent to both of us, and rather quickly, that when it came to intimate relations with here, nothing of mine was, um, interested …

Even with that and with a few more experiences with males after college, it still took me until 28 or so, to figure things out for good. And for me, it took falling in love with a sweet young man and finally realizing that I was actually in love with him. I had feelings for him that I had never had for any person before ever.

But I digress. To get to the main question of the OP, I think sexual attraction is that which causes a certain physiological reaction in your body. OK, so you know that I can appreciate a nice looking lady, right? Well, that’s about it. I appreciate them - like art, or fine wine or whatever. With a fine looking man, (OK, with ANY man - I’m basically a fag horn-dog) it ain’t just appreciation - it’s pure lust. Right now, there’s construction going on at our building and most of the constrcution workers are visible immediately outside my office window. Want to know what I look at while I’m sitting on hold? Want to know what I fantasize about while I’m watching?

Now, when our very attractive and physically amazing morning anchor lady comes up to visit my office and hugs me and gives me a little friendly kiss? Nothing. No stirrings, no, um, interest. Nothing. We can be friends, we can bullshit about stuff - AND we lust after the same construction workers outside my window!!

To me, sexual attraction is a realtively simple concept (and I realize that this isn’t alwasy the case with everyone) - does the person in question make my teeth ache and make my heart skip a beat and make certain parts of my anatomy , um, ‘change state’? Does a particular image or person cause me to stare so badly that I nearly crash my car or motorcycle? (nearly happened on Sunday :smiley: )

Yeah, I know, not much help here either - but this is kind of an obtuse concept. In my personal experience, sexually, the proof of the pudding was in the tasting. With men I can perform, and with ease. With women, there is no such response from any part of me. For me, that’s about it.

I didn’t figure out what direction I was going sexuality-wise until I was 28 or so. I say “or so” because when the final realization finally started kicking in, I fought it a little and I got a little messy until I was almost 30…

At any rate, Priam, I’m not sure what you feel isn’t completely right and natural. I can say this about myself - I can truly appreciate a beautiful female, but I’d never even consider the idea of getting intimate with one (eew, icky poo!) But that doesn’t stop me from wondering and looking upon the visage of a comely woman and having a little smile. Carrie-Anne Moss in tight black vinyl or leather or whatever that was, on the back on a Ducati 996 in The Matrix: Reloaded? Yup, BIG smile! :slight_smile: (OK, yeah, it was probably the motorcycle…)

I had my first experiences with males at a fairly early age - while I was still in Jr. High School, in fact. I found out early on that I liked it, but societal norms are sometimes hard to overcome when you’re 15, so I had a couple of girlfriends in High School, and in college, a lady I was spending time with and I were actually talking about getting married. Well, we were until it became apparent to both of us, and rather quickly, that when it came to intimate relations with here, nothing of mine was, um, interested …

Even with that and with a few more experiences with males after college, it still took me until 28 or so, to figure things out for good. And for me, it took falling in love with a sweet young man and finally realizing that I was actually in love with him. I had feelings for him that I had never had for any person before ever.

But I digress. To get to the main question of the OP, I think sexual attraction is that which causes a certain physiological reaction in your body. OK, so you know that I can appreciate a nice looking lady, right? Well, that’s about it. I appreciate them - like art, or fine wine or whatever. With a fine looking man, (OK, with ANY man - I’m basically a fag horn-dog) it ain’t just appreciation - it’s pure lust. Right now, there’s construction going on at our building and most of the constrcution workers are visible immediately outside my office window. Want to know what I look at while I’m sitting on hold? Want to know what I fantasize about while I’m watching?

Now, when our very attractive and physically amazing morning anchor lady comes up to visit my office and hugs me and gives me a little friendly kiss? Nothing. No stirrings, no, um, interest. Nothing. We can be friends, we can bullshit about stuff - AND we lust after the same construction workers outside my window!!

To me, sexual attraction is a realtively simple concept (and I realize that this isn’t alwasy the case with everyone) - does the person in question make my teeth ache and make my heart skip a beat and make certain parts of my anatomy , um, ‘change state’? Does a particular image or person cause me to stare so badly that I nearly crash my car or motorcycle? (nearly happened on Sunday :smiley: )

Yeah, I know, not much help here either - but this is kind of an obtuse concept. In my personal experience, sexually, the proof of the pudding was in the tasting. With men I can perform, and with ease. With women, there is no such response from any part of me. For me, that’s about it.