What is the Christian view of Natives? Are they all Damned?

[Psycho_Pirate]

First, in response to the OP, I believe that Paul answers the question perfectly in Romans 1:20, as was previously stated. Looking at God’s creation is sufficient to point to the average person that this did not all come into being by chance, and that there is an authority higher than oneself. This leads to one of three things, the rebellion of atheism, the resignation of agnosticism, or the resolution to seek out this higher being.

God gave many object lessons to the Old Testament saints. He slayed an animal to provide clothing for Adam and Eve, He provided a sacrifice for Abraham and Isaac, etc. All of these object lessons pointed to one thing: without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. I believe that the Old Testament saints were saved by looking forward to that ultimate sacrifice, just as we can now be saved by looking back to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

@zaccheus

“If I claim Jesus as Lord, and do not read my Bible, am I saved?”

Not necessarily. If you accepted Christ as your Savior, you are saved. You should read your Bible, but you don’t have to. It isn’t a “works” salvation. But claiming Jesus as Lord isn’t enough (Mat 7:22-23 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”). You have to repent and ask forgiveness from Christ (John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”).

@Diogenes the Cynic

I’m going to have to ask Paul for a cite for this. God’s never shown me anything.

Have you honestly looked? Hint: It involves FAITH (Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”, emphasis mine).

@Diogenes the Cynic

Jesus answered this question himself. When he was asked what a person had to do to gain eternal life, he said to love God and love your neighbor. “Do this and you shall live,” said the J man.

The man who asked Jesus that question was a Pharisee, who only asked the question trying to tempt Christ. Here is the whole conversation:

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luke 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Christ goes on to tell the parable of the good Samaritan (a class of people despised by the Jews of that time). My 2 cents is that if you love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, you have pretty much accepted Christ as Savior, so Christ’s answer is (essentially) correct. I’m going to have to disagree with your interpretation of serving others taking the place of serving God, in so far as that interpretation implies far too much of a “works” salvation to make me comfortable. If we had to work to get into heaven, we’d never get there.

@Diogenes the Cynic

I would expect God to be at least as forgiving of me as I am of my kids. I think perfection is an unreasonable and uncompassionate requirement.

Oh come now. God doesn’t expect anyone to be perfect. I suggest you read the Bible and get a better handle on His teachings before you start spouting off on what God does and doesn’t want. To sum it up for you, God knows none of us are perfect. I personally fall short dozens of times a day. But Christ provided a way to be forgiven for all of our shortcomings. It’s really easy…you just have to admit that you have fallen short, realize that Jesus has provided forgiveness for you, and ask Him to forgive you. If you do that, and mean it, congratulations – you’re on your way to Heaven.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Psycho Pirate

First, in response to the OP, I believe that Paul answers the question perfectly in Romans 1:20, as was previously stated. Looking at God’s creation is sufficient to point to the average person that this did not all come into being by chance, and that there is an authority higher than oneself.

Phrasing it as “looking at God’s creation” is assuming your own conclusion. Beyond that, Paul was wrong. No matter how hard we look at the universe, human beings have neevr discovered a single thing which would necessitate a “creator,” or that “chance” is not completely sufficient to explain the universe. If you can spot something that requires a supernatural explanation, I’d like to see what it is. If you’ve really got something, I’ll be the first to call Stockholm and nominate you for the Nobel Prize.

This leads to one of three things, the rebellion of atheism, the resignation of agnosticism, or the resolution to seek out this higher being.

You’re excluding the possibility that somebody just might not see it. I don’t. Atheism is not “rebellion.” It’s just a lack of theistic belief. I can’t “rebel” against something I don’t believe exists. Are you rebelling against Zeus?

God gave many object lessons to the Old Testament saints. He slayed an animal to provide clothing for Adam and Eve, He provided a sacrifice for Abraham and Isaac, etc. All of these object lessons pointed to one thing: without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. I believe that the Old Testament saints were saved by looking forward to that ultimate sacrifice, just as we can now be saved by looking back to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

WHY does God need blood? Why can’t he just forgive? What does he nedd to kill something for? If he needs blood so badly, why can’t he just conjure it up ex nihilo? He’s God, after all. He can create all the blood he wants. I don’t see the connection between blood and forgiveness? What does one have to do with the other? Why can’t God forgive without a sacrifice? I can. Am I more benevolent than God? More powerful?

Have you honestly looked? Hint: It involves FAITH (Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”, emphasis mine).

Saying it requres faith to see it is completely circular. You’re saying if I believe it, i’ll believe it. Well, I don’t believe it so I don’t believe it.

This would also contradict the assertion that the existence of God is obvious to everybody or that “looking is sufficient.” If you tell me to look with faith, you’re telling me to believe without looking.

The man who asked Jesus that question was a Pharisee, who only asked the question trying to tempt Christ. Here is the whole conversation:

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luke 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

OK, love God, love your neighbor. “Do this and you shall live.” Nothing about accepting anyone as a saviour so far.

Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Christ goes on to tell the parable of the good Samaritan (a class of people despised by the Jews of that time).

Right. So your neighbor is everybody, not just your family or tribe.

My 2 cents is that if you love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, you have pretty much accepted Christ as Savior

There’s a huge excluded middle there. How do you get from loving God without accepting Christ as your saviour? Can’t you love God without being a Christan?

so Christ’s answer is (essentially) correct. I’m going to have to disagree with your interpretation of serving others taking the place of serving God, in so far as that interpretation implies far too much of a “works” salvation to make me comfortable. If we had to work to get into heaven, we’d never get there.

Well, I don’t know why what makes you comfortable has anything to do with. Jesus himself specified works and not belief. Anything which is NOT based on works is morally deficient. There is nothing inherently “good” or “moral” about simply believing one religion over another.

Oh come now. God doesn’t expect anyone to be perfect. I suggest you read the Bible and get a better handle on His teachings before you start spouting off on what God does and doesn’t want.

I’m pretty sure I probably know more about your Bible than you do, so don’t get snippy with me. Allow me to quote Jesus Christ:

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
(Mt. 5:48)

Was Jesus God? What did God mean when he said to “be perfect.?”

I’ve had many conversations with many Christians about the subject of salvation and it’s extremely common for them to say that people can’t get into heaven on their own because they’re all imperfect. They’re all “tainted” with sin? Is that not correct? Is that not what you believe? My question is why can’t God just tale us tainted sinners into Heaven the way we are? Why does there have to be a sacrifice? Why do we have to be forgiven?

To sum it up for you, God knows none of us are perfect. I personally fall short dozens of times a day. But Christ provided a way to be forgiven for all of our shortcomings. It’s really easy…you just have to admit that you have fallen short, realize that Jesus has provided forgiveness for you, and ask Him to forgive you. If you do that, and mean it, congratulations – you’re on your way to Heaven.

I’ll ask again. Why can’t God forgive me WITHOUT Christ? Who is he to judge me anyway? I haven’t done anything to him, nor can I.

Beyond that, even if he DOES expect me to accept a “saviour,” then he has an obligation to PROVE that to me. How is it just or fair or compassionate or moral to expect people just to guess such a thing without evidence?

It seems like a ridiculous condition anyway. There’s a lot of damn good people who aren’t Christian and I have no use for any God who would exclude them for not being able to guess which religion is correct.

[sqweels]

I’ve been under the impression that meditation and/or an ascetic lifestyle isn’t supposed to get you into Heaven; it’s supposed to help get you out of Hell.

The point is that you can’t foster a connection with God by focusing purely on wordly affairs. With Jesus you can spend most of your time doing that rather than having to make maintaining a connection to God a full-time job.

[cosmosdan]

@Diogenes the Cynic

1.There is no religion where meditation or an ascetic lifestyle is supposed to get you into Heaven. In Eastern traditions like Buddhism, neither meditation nor asceticism are supposed to bring enlightenment.

What does bring enlightenment in eastern traditions like Buddhism?

2. If God isn’t willing to give the “phone number” to everybody (and I don’t mean just sending missionaries to harass and proselytize people in Peru, I’m talking about giving everybody some PROOF) then it’s a worthless and amoral form of salvation. IMO, If being a good person isn’t good enough, then God isn’t good enough.

Interesting way of putting it. How can you tell if a person is good? Compared to what? Who judges what degree of good gets you there. How do we know what our potential for being good is?

[cosmosdan]

@sqweels

My belief is that the spirit of Christ creates a “program” that makes it easier to get to heaven. It’s a shortcut, a substitute for the heavy meditation and aescetic lifestyle that would otherwise be required. I don’t think it’s a question of sympathizing with people who cannot be blamed for not having been exposed to Jesus. Either you’ve dialed the combination neccessary to make the connection with God or you haven’t. There have always been other ways without having to go through Jesus, but they are more difficult and time-consuming. You might say that Christ is a new-fangled peice of spiritual technology.

I thought this was pretty dam funny.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@cosmosdan

What does bring enlightenment in eastern traditions like Buddhism?

Depends on the specific tradition. Generally speaking it can’t happen by any personal effort. The great Paradox of Buddhist enlightment is that you can’t get it until you stop wanting it.

There are Hindu and Buddhist traditions involving meditation and asceticism which are intended to improve one’s karma and bring about better rebirths (until you work your way up to a Buddha state), but strictly speaking, meditation and asceticism are not supposed to be direct paths to enlightment, they’re just methods for improving karma and eliminating worldly distractions.

Interesting way of putting it. How can you tell if a person is good?

It’s an intuitive personal judgement on my part. Anyone who strikes me as good is good.

Compared to what?

Why do they have to be compared to anything? Cmpared to whoever does not strike me as good, I guess.

Who judges what degree of good gets you there.

Gets you where? If you’re asking me what I mean by good enough, then I’m the judge. I’ll try to put it a different way. If people who I think are good are not good enough to be “saved,” from…whatever…then, God is not good enough to suit me. I’m setting myself up as the the only judge of right and wrong…just like everybody else does if you get right down to it.

How do we know what our potential for being good is?

I don’t understand this question. What do you mean by “potential for being good?”

[John_Mace]

@Diogenes the Cynic

It’s an intuitive personal judgement on my part. Anyone who strikes me as good is good.

You mean you can look someone in the eye and get a sense of his soul? I know of someone else who is able to do that.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

I didn’t say I could get a sense just by looking at them. Sometimes I don’t have enough data to make a judgement.

[John_Mace]

Yeah, I know. I didn’t mean it as a serious comparison, but I just couldn’t help thinking of the Bush/Putin thing.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@John Mace

Yeah, I know. I didn’t mean it as a serious comparison, but I just couldn’t help thinking of the Bush/Putin thing.

Yeah, that was was pretty funny.

[cosmosdan]

@Diogenes the Cynic

It’s an intuitive personal judgement on my part. Anyone who strikes me as good is good

Thanks for responding. I see that Skammer already asked some of the same questions. You seem to be saying it’s personal judgement. Which is how everyone does it. Let’s say some people think horrendous acts that almost everyone else would see as moral crimes are actually good. Such as Hitler believing his actions against the Jews were good. Some terrorists believe their actions are good even when they kill civilians, woman, children. How does that fit into your concept?

Why do they have to be compared to anything? Cmpared to whoever does not strike me as good, I guess.

How can you judge what is good without some sort of comparison? But that varies from person to person. Does that mean there is really no good or bad?

Gets you where? If you’re asking me what I mean by good enough, then I’m the judge. I’ll try to put it a different way. If people who I think are good are not good enough to be “saved,” from…whatever…then, God is not good enough to suit me. I’m setting myself up as the the only judge of right and wrong…just like everybody else does if you get right down to it.

Well the OP is about salvation but we can set that aside. If everyone gets to judge for themselves what is good, or good enough, I repeat. Is there really any good or bad? Is anything moral or immoral?

I don’t understand this question. What do you mean by “potential for being good?”

What I judged as good when I was 20 is not the same as my judgement now. I think that maturity and experience has helped me grow into a better person. That requires the desire to be a better person and some concept of choices and consequences. Can I continue to grow and improve? Where can it lead? Do we settle and say good enough or continue to explore?

I enjoyed your exchange with Psycho Pirate I was thinking some of the same things and some of your questions were dead on. The Bible says God is a spirit and those that worshiop him must worship him in spirit and truth.
In Matthew 6 Jesus says don’t value the temporary things this world has to offer that will fade in time. That would include our physical bodies. And yet somehow God needs physical blood to wash away our sins?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@cosmosdan

Thanks for responding. I see that Skammer already asked some of the same questions. You seem to be saying it’s personal judgement. Which is how everyone does it. Let’s say some people think horrendous acts that almost everyone else would see as moral crimes are actually good. Such as Hitler believing his actions against the Jews were good. Some terrorists believe their actions are good even when they kill civilians, woman, children. How does that fit into your concept?

By my lights their actions are wrong. I wouldn’t do it. I should make it clear, when I talk about making personal judgements about right and wrong, I’m only talking about my own choices, not anybody else. The simplest way I can put it is that I try not to do things that I feel are wrong. I’m not saying that everybody should do whatever they want, I’m saying that I personally want to follow my own inner compass. It strikes me as deeply wrong and immoral to worship a God who would exclude kind, loving, peaceful human beings from “salvation” (and what are they being “saved” from anyway but God himself?) simply because they do not happen to believe that, of all the countless religious myths out there (all of which have exactly the same empirical evidence…none) this one particular myth is true and all the rest are false. This is compounded by the fact that I know that the sacred book which contains this story is filled with historical falsehoods, factual errors, contradictions, folklore, fiction, ancient propaganda, antiquated worldviews and in some cases attributes the most unspeakable moral depravity to the God it wants me to worship. I have made an autonomous moral decision that I cannot follow that God. My conscience will not permit. Millions of others have made an equally autonomous choice that they DO want to follow that God. Their choices are no more authoritative than mine.

How can you judge what is good without some sort of comparison? But that varies from person to person. Does that mean there is really no good or bad?

I’m not really trying to judge other people, I’m only judging myself. If I feel like it would be wrong for me to set somebody on fire for all eternity then I’m not going to do it and I’m not going to submit to any God that would do it.

Well the OP is about salvation but we can set that aside. If everyone gets to judge for themselves what is good, or good enough, I repeat. Is there really any good or bad? Is anything moral or immoral?

Is anything really beautiful or ugly? Subjectively, I would say yes, objectively, no.

What I judged as good when I was 20 is not the same as my judgement now. I think that maturity and experience has helped me grow into a better person. That requires the desire to be a better person and some concept of choices and consequences. Can I continue to grow and improve? Where can it lead? Do we settle and say good enough or continue to explore?

By all means, grow and explore. I’m not saying not to grow. All I’m saying is that I would personally not require that someone achieve his full potential in order to get into heaven. I would have a very low standard for avoiding damnation. Perhaps no standard at all. I would have no problem with simply letting everybody into the party with no questions asked. I don’t see how heaven is any less heavenly with sinners in it, nor do I see how it’s any more Heavenly if sinners are excluded. At worst, in the cases of people like the Hitlers and the Saddams and the Ted Bundys of the world, I could see simply annihilating them from existence but I can’t see any point in torturing them. What for?

I enjoyed your exchange with Psycho Pirate I was thinking some of the same things and some of your questions were dead on. The Bible says God is a spirit and those that worshiop him must worship him in spirit and truth.
In Matthew 6 Jesus says don’t value the temporary things this world has to offer that will fade in time. That would include our physical bodies. And yet somehow God needs physical blood to wash away our sins?

Thank you. The sacrificial aspect of Christian soteriology has long been one of my biggest stumbling blocks towards Christianity.

[cosmosdan]

=Psycho Pirate
God gave many object lessons to the Old Testament saints. He slayed an animal to provide clothing for Adam and Eve, He provided a sacrifice for Abraham and Isaac, etc.** All of these object lessons pointed to one thing: without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.** I believe that the Old Testament saints were saved by looking forward to that ultimate sacrifice, just as we can now be saved by looking back to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ for our sins.

That’s your view and the view of some{not all}Christians I suppose. The problem is, it doesn’t make any sense and is supported only by cherry picking and misinterperting certain biblical passages, which is a book containing writings selected by, written by, and interperted by men. I happen to think the bible is a wonderful book. I just wish more Christians would read it without their Christian myth and tradition goggles on.

Not necessarily. If you accepted Christ as your Savior, you are saved. You should read your Bible, but you don’t have to. It isn’t a “works” salvation. But claiming Jesus as Lord isn’t enough (Mat 7:22-23 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”). You have to repent and ask forgiveness from Christ** (John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”).
**

I’ve seen this particular verse quoted over and over and over again by all sorts of Christians. My question is, what exactly did Jesus mean when he said that? Who should I go to in order to find out? Is there some particular person I should go to for an interpertation? Should I accept one man’s interpertation over another.

The man who asked Jesus that question was a Pharisee, who only asked the question trying to tempt Christ. Here is the whole conversation:

As Diogenes points out. Even in context Jesus doesn’t say anything about a new covenant or believing in the Son of Man. He plainly says. "Do this {Love God and your fellow man} and you shall live.

My 2 cents is that if you love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, you have pretty much accepted Christ as Savior, so Christ’s answer is (essentially) correct.

I tend to agree with this. That includes people of all religions and some who belong to no religion at all. Your use of {essentially} cracks me up. Does that mean Jesus wasn’t quite right but pretty much in the ballpark? That’s a riot. It’s lucky for Jesus that he has Christians arounf to correct him when he’s a little off.

I’m going to have to disagree with your interpretation of serving others taking the place of serving God, in so far as that interpretation implies far too much of a “works” salvation to make me comfortable. If we had to work to get into heaven, we’d never get there.

As is “work out your salvation” that kind of work? The truth is what it is whether you or I are comfortable with it or not. Jesus clearly taught that serving your fellow man is serving God. “whenever you did it unto the least of these”

Oh come now. God doesn’t expect anyone to be perfect.

Which explains why Jesus asked us to be I guess :rolleyes:

I suggest you read the Bible and get a better handle on His teachings before you start spouting off on what God does and doesn’t want. To sum it up for you, God knows none of us are perfect. I personally fall short dozens of times a day.

It’s not just a matter of reading the bible. It’s a matter of interperting the Bible as well and even Christian scholars can’t agree on it’s meaning. Why should I think that your interpertation or anyone elses is any more valid than my own.

But Christ provided a way to be forgiven for all of our shortcomings. It’s really easy…you just have to admit that you have fallen short, realize that Jesus has provided forgiveness for you, and ask Him to forgive you. If you do that, and mean it, congratulations – you’re on your way to Heaven.

But you said that that wasn’t enough.

I have a question. I’ve heard of 11th hour salvation where someone on their deathbed accepts Jesus as Saviour and they are saved.
Is there such a thing as 11th hour damnation? If someone has been a good Christian most of the time, and like you they slip up every day, and repent and ask for forgivness, what happens if they sin and an instant later get killed before they get to repent of that particular sin? I guess they’re damned for eternity.
Just imagine a Christian going down the road and when some careless driver cuts him or her off, they succumb to tempation and screem “You freakin idiot” out their window. According to Jesus thats the same as murder. Then there’s an accident and that christian is killed before repenting of their sin of anger. Eternal damnation right?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Re: John 14:6:

There is more than one way to interpret that line. For example, we can remember that the author of the 4th Gospel was giving an interpretation of Jesus as the Logos- as the Word of God. “Through me” is through the Logos, through God’s word- his instructions…and his instructions are to serve God by loving our neighbors.

If defining Jesus as the Word doesn’t do it for you, try taking Paul’s formulation of God as love. “Through me” is through love. No one gets to the father except by love.

Like Cosmo* said, it’s not like it’s completely cut and dried what that line really means and a look at the teachings of Jesus in toto always get back to a very simple theme of loving other people with humility and without judgement. It could certainly be argued that Jesus as love and as the Word is what he meant by calling himself the “way.”

[cosmosdan]

@Diogenes the Cynic

By my lights their actions are wrong. I wouldn’t do it. I should make it clear, when I talk about making personal judgements about right and wrong, I’m only talking about my own choices, not anybody else. The simplest way I can put it is that I try not to do things that I feel are wrong. I’m not saying that everybody should do whatever they want, I’m saying that I personally want to follow my own inner compass. It strikes me as deeply wrong and immoral to worship a God who would exclude kind, loving, peaceful human beings from “salvation” (and what are they being “saved” from anyway but God himself?) simply because they do not happen to believe that, of all the countless religious myths out there (all of which have exactly the same empirical evidence…none) this one particular myth is true and all the rest are false. This is compounded by the fact that I know that the sacred book which contains this story is filled with historical falsehoods, factual errors, contradictions, folklore, fiction, ancient propaganda, antiquated worldviews and in some cases attributes the most unspeakable moral depravity to the God it wants me to worship. I have made an autonomous moral decision that I cannot follow that God. My conscience will not permit. Millions of others have made an equally autonomous choice that they DO want to follow that God. Their choices are no more authoritative than mine.

I quite agree. For myself I make no pretense of being right or having all the answers. I just realize that it is my decision and no one elses.
Keep in mind though that when making those decisions about what is good we have to choose how we relate to others.

I’m not really trying to judge other people, I’m only judging myself. If I feel like it would be wrong for me to set somebody on fire for all eternity then I’m not going to do it and I’m not going to submit to any God that would do it.

I don’t think we can avoid judging others. I think it’s how we judge them and how we see our relationship to others that is the biggest challenge and something that encourages growth.

By all means, grow and explore. I’m not saying not to grow. All I’m saying is that I would personally not require that someone achieve his full potential in order to get into heaven. I would have a very low standard for avoiding damnation. Perhaps no standard at all. I would have no problem with simply letting everybody into the party with no questions asked. I don’t see how heaven is any less heavenly with sinners in it, nor do I see how it’s any more Heavenly if sinners are excluded. At worst, in the cases of people like the Hitlers and the Saddams and the Ted Bundys of the world, I could see simply annihilating them from existence but I can’t see any point in torturing them. What for?

I don’t see it as reward and punishment. More along the lines of facing the consequences of our own choices. If I cling to anger over something then it affects my life and I can’t move on until I let it go. Heaven isn’t a place where we hang out together. It’s more like a state of mind or a state of being. If you’re not there then you just aren’t. It’s not punishment.
Another analogy is prisoners shackled in a dark cave who no longer remeber what freedom is like. It’s not an act of love to shatter their chains and thrust them from darkness into brilliant light. They can’t take it.

Thank you. The sacrificial aspect of Christian soteriology has long been one of my biggest stumbling blocks towards Christianity.

When people would say “Christ died for you” presenting that as the sacrifice, I would think, “According to your belief he knew he was going to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God. How is* that* a sacrifice?”

[cosmosdan]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Re: John 14:6:
There is more than one way to interpret that line. For example, we can remember that the author of the 4th Gospel was giving an interpretation of Jesus as the Logos- as the Word of God. “Through me” is through the Logos, through God’s word- his instructions…and his instructions are to serve God by loving our neighbors.

Very interesting. In my own studies I’ve noticed that the Word of God is often refered to as a real living thing that dwells within us and changes us. Christians often misinterpret many of these verses to refer to written scripture. It makes sense to me that John 14:6 would be also refering to this living word.

If defining Jesus as the Word doesn’t do it for you, try taking Paul’s formulation of God as love. “Through me” is through love. No one gets to the father except by love.

I also easily saw it as “You can only get to the father by following the example I have set.”

Like Cosmo* said, it’s not like it’s completely cut and dried what that line really means and a look at the teachings of Jesus in toto always get back to a very simple theme of loving other people with humility and without judgement. It could certainly be argued that Jesus as love and as the Word is what he meant by calling himself the “way.”

And fits with the other words attributed to Jesus in the NT.

[Czarcasm]

Let me see if I have this straight-We are created imperfect and cannot achieve perfection no matter how hard we try, and the almighty and benevolent God generously forgives us for his faulty plan?

[cosmosdan]

@Czarcasm

Let me see if I have this straight-We are created imperfect and cannot achieve perfection no matter how hard we try, and the almighty and benevolent God generously forgives us for his faulty plan?

That would be no, you don’t have it straight.

[Czarcasm]

We are not perfect? Check.
We cannot be perfect? Check.
The Bible says that we must strive to be perfect? Check.
We cannot enter a heaven that God created for us in the condition God creates us in the first place? Check.
God “forgives” us for this? Check.

What step did I skip here?

[Ca3799]

I recently asked this very question on another board that I belong to.

Most posters who responded ignored or refused to answer the question- they seemed hostile to it, calling the question ‘stupid’ and ‘pointless’. Of the three or so that answered, one said the ‘unchurched’ could not go to heaven (but wouldn’t confirm they were going to hell), and two said they probably could go to heaven.

I just asked the question for fun (and to annoy the proselytisers there), but was surprised that the posters had so much difficulty with and hostility to the question!