Surely that should be reductio ad Amsterdam?
There may be lots of stereotypes regarding actual culture, i.e. how people really are. However, IMO there are fundamental differences concerning the way Europeans and Americans think about there own country.
I had a longer post that was eaten, but let me redo it quickly:
American here, on the American Dream: I think it is based a great deal on our cultural and family histories. Almost everyone I know can recite tales of their forefathers, who came to the USA penniless and built themselves a future from nothing. My great-grandfather left Finland as a poor young man. He worked on sailing ships, traveling the world for years. Then he settled down in Washington state and helped turn the wilderness into a productive farm, raising 6 kids along the way. My own father eventually left that farm and that still-tiny village, served in the Navy for 20 years, and then had another full career as a doctor after he retired. My wife’s grandfathers both worked for nothing in the coal mines and steel mills of Western Pennsylvania, retired much better off than they started, and led their own children down the same path toward doing a bit better still. So the American dream, as I see it, is part being surrounded by these stories that celebrate such up-from-humble-beginnings successes (since that’s what made our nation, which was–native tribes aside–a wilderness from which we carved a civilization) and part feeling an obligation/guilt to take what your parents and grandparents worked so hard to secure and not squander it.
What sort of family stories (in this vein … we too have the other kinds of family stories, the funny ones, etc.) do the Europeans tell?
That’s an interesting approach. You may in fact be on to something, in that the stories Americans hear from their parents may well differ from the ones Europeans in general hear.
In general I would think Europeans are primarily interested in a peaceful life, since the continent has for large parts of its history been a battlefield. The lucky periods of history are the blank pages, to loosely quote Hegel.
This might also explain the aversion of Europeans to guns: Americans associate guns with a well-armed militia that battled the British oppressor, Europeans associate guns with roaming armies looting the place.
These are of course only hypotheses.
Yet another stereotype of America–Americans are too stupid and ignorant to comment on Europe unless they reject all that is American first.
So, you’re saying that they’ve been taught that they have no hope, whatsoever. If they were born into poverty and misery, they will stay there forever–that’s the European way–according to you. No thanks, had my ancestors taken such a loserly approach to life, they’d all have died in Ireland in 1847.
What I said
You said
I know that it is hard to understand because I AM AMERICAN. I never said that you have to abandon all that you know, but it is highly unlikely that you will understand foreign cultures until you spend considerable time in them. And you still don’t understand everything. Ask anyone that has been abroad for a significant amount of time and ask them if it hasn’t changed their views of the world. I know of none, and I know many. And going for a two week vacation in Europe doesn’t count.
This is a typical example of what I was just writing about. You have no clue that it is not a black and white issue. Sure there is upward mobility in Europe, but most people’s situations are comfortable enough to not be so upwardly motivated. And the example with someone who works in a low level job does want to improve their lot in life. But what about the middle-class types? Why do they need to be upwardly mobile? It is an option in most of Europe to not have to worry about it. I would have to say that at least Northern Europe has done a much better job of fighting poverty than the US has.
This isn’t even the point of the thread. I was never arguing which one is better. I gave my opinion about the way I see it. The American way of life is fine if that’s what you like. If you prefer the American way, then I am happy for you, but I won’t really respect your opinion until you try to live in another culture with an open mind about it. I am simply trying to find out the reasons why the American Dream is the way it is, and why Europe is different. As an American it is hard for me to understand why people in Europe aren’t always competing as much as Americans are. But it doesn’t mean that they are miserable.
I knew this thread would bring some jackasses out of the woodwork, but jeez :rolleyes:
Wrong. You express things in extremely black-and-white terms and then get prissy and pissy when it’s shown to your face. You stated, and I QUOTE YOU DIRECTLY:
YOU FLAT-OUT STATED THAT IT IS A BLACK-AND-WHITE ISSUE. If that is not what you meant, I’m sure that it is 100% my fault as there is never that is not due 100% entirely and completely to the hearer rather than the speaker.
Nice to see that you consider people too poor and tied to family to go gallivanting around willy-nilly to be your utter inferiors. If you want to lecture people about openmindedness, look at your own posts more critically.
They are always competing as much as Americans are–you just have a very limited experience with Americans if you think we are as competitive as you claim we are. You may be some sort of “American”, but we’re a far bigger country than your life. How many decades have you lived in America? Where have you lived? Among what social strata and ethnic groups have you lived, for how long? How much time have you spent working in an assembly line or behind a counter? What is your experience with the real America?
Ah, I see, I’m a jackass. And when have I called you names? But, since you’re all knowing, all open-minded, and all-perfect, unlike a mere jackass like me, you’re free to indulge namecalling. After all, if you were not all-knowing, all open-minded, and all-perfect by what right would you indulge in namecalling?
I actually think that making sweeping generalisations about Americans isnt as silly as making sweeping generalisations about Europeans. The US is more homogenous (homogenouser:) ) than Europe, with a distinct culture among its majority.
Im from Iceland and we have a lot more incommon with the majority of Americans than say, Ukranians or Greeks. I’d say the European dream is varied from country to country.
Icelanders tend to work hard, party hard and fight with their bosses… endlessly. The medium workplace is 6 ppl. Workplaces with more employees and fists come up. Danes are the excact opposite. They tend to slack off and have a beer at work with their bosses and things get settled amicably.
After much trying I cant identify the Icelandic dream. Lets just say that Icelanders dont really have a culture for rich ppl to fit into. My nextdoor neighbour makes 5 million$ a year and drivers a Subaru 1800 '89. His son asked me for gasmoney earlier today. This is somewhat typical for Icelandic millionaires.
You want to hijack a thread? Start your own. There you can talk about how I really am Anti-American and have no clue about what goes on there. But here I am trying to figure out the difference between America and Europe in terms of liftetime aspirations and what it means to be sucessful in life. I simply said what being an American IMO means to me. I can’t remember how many times I typed “IMO or IMHO” but I tried to put as many qualifiers in to describe that it was my personal opinion. You know what? I don’t care what you think about my opinion of America. I’m entitled to it. You know nothing about Europe and have probably never been there for more than a couple of weeks at a time, and until you can prove that I’ll consider your point moot. How the hell are you supposed to make a judgement about the differences between two cultures when your only news source is Fox news.
And secondly I thought about putting in this thread that I was only interested in responses from people that had spent significant time in Europe and America. But I didn’t want to sound to stuffy. I wish now that I had. Thanks for ruining my thread, I’ll be sure to return the favor.
Don’t take it personally, Merkwurdigliebe. Whenever the subject of Europe and the US has come up, Dogface frequently exhibits an attitude towards Europe and its inhabitants (and our perceived attitudes) that derails sensible debate. Water off a duck’s (or perhaps a gander’s) back.
For entertaining reading on the subject of the OP, I recommend Bill Bryson’s Neither Here Nor There: Travels in Europe versus his Notes from a Big Country. Also America and the Americans (author eludes me) vs. PJ O’Rourke’s Holidays in Hell (‘Euro Weenies’ chapter).
And now the mask falls. You reveal that you intend to indulge in cyberstalking on this board.
Dogface, I owe you an apology for my last post.
I got you mixed up with a completely different canine - Beagle - who has had a few rabid anti-Europe meltdowns in the past.
Woof woof.
Sorry.
Merkwurdigliebe
[Moderator Hat ON]
Merkwurdigliebe, name-calling is not allowed in this forum. If you absolutely feel you must, take it to the BBQ Pit. Also, I don’t want anyone deciding to “ruin” other people’s threads out of revenge. Dogface, Merkwurdigliebe, please get back on topic (and the topic is NOT “reasons why so-and-so is a jerk”).
[Moderator Hat OFF]
Okay, just to get back to the original thread intent, I’ll try to reframe the debate, ok?
Dogface: Although we disagree, I do think you have a valid point to make, I just wish you would spell it out. What do you think the difference between Americans and European goals in life are? Why do you think it is like that? I used many examples that I admit are simply my observations. When I was talking about the minimum wage workers, I meant to say “I don’t understand how people here can be so content with such a low position in life.” The point wasn’t to say that its better or worse. I just wanted to understand how people in these positions seem much more satisfied in comparision to those in America. I personally think that in America the society is filled with expectations of having a better life through hard work. This is true sometimes, but whether the American dream is a reality or not is the subject for another debate. In Europe there aren’t the same expectations, thus people are satisfied with their position. I think that its a kind of natural adaptation of people to their surroundings. If there is a slimmer chance to move up the ladder, then you make it less a part of your life, and your eventual happiness. If you live in a society where there is greater social mobility, then it becomes more of a priority.
I have been using examples to explain how I don’t understand the thinking behind it because I am an American. There really isn’t much factual evidence to be used here so the only thing you can really give is your opinion. Please don’t get upset when you don’t agree with someone’s opinion.
I’d say that it’s so because in Europe it sucks a lot less to be a minimum wage slave than in the USA. It isn’t great ambition that powers the American dream, it’s suckosity. In the USA, it sucks far worse to be in the lower economic levels than it does in Western Europe (although the rich folks of the EU are looking rather nervously east to their new neighbors). If the cost of low-energy coasting is sufficiently high, then those peopl who decide not to coast will be more motivated. What stinks on ice is that the same mindset means that people who are innocently stuck with a bad deal suffer far more.
What consequences do they face for putting up their feet and coasting? The presence of a safety net can do wonders for annihilating ambition. If one wants to control a population, just keep the bread and circuses going. Of course, if one can no longer afford unlimited bread and circuses, be prepared for heads to roll. Consider what is happening regarding France and Germany and the end of their pension system.
Well, in Tsarist Russia, “making it” was a very low priority. I wouldn’t want to be a peasant in Tsarist Russia.
There really isn’t much factual evidence to be used here so the only thing you can really give is your opinion. Please don’t get upset when you don’t agree with someone’s opinion.
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First, you have specifically and explicitly said that my opinion is worthless. I’ll quote you:
Now, who is it who has been indulging in tantrums over opinion?
I do agree that it is much easier and more “normal” to have a low income job in Europe. If you enter a bakery in Europe (well, at least in the places where I live), then you say hello, you smile to people, and often you engage in some kind of small-talk, even if you don’t know the clerk. Brief, you consider the guy as equivalent to you, whatever job you have yourself.
One of the first things I noticed in the US is that I never want to have one of the McJobs, even if it is just during a short time, lets say to finance college. You are considered as nothing. Often french fries are ordered in a millitary command language, which really shocked me.
And this differs from Indiana just HOW? Sounds to me like you’ve run into a lot of stinking nasty rude people, not typical Americans at all–certainly not typical of my chunk of America.
Again, sounds like you’ve landed in a concentration of nasty sorts whom the USA would be best disposing of. That sort of behavior, even by a serious bigwig, would not be acceptable out in Indiana.
I think Merkwurdigliebe is lacking a bit in experience with or perhaps exposure to the way things are here in Germany.
I am an American who has lived here in Germany for 16 years. I know Germans, and I see the way that they live and I’ve seen some of the little things that aren’t obvious and I’ve had some time to think about them.
For starters, I would not say that most Germans are perfectly content with their lot in life. Lower class, middle class, whatever. There isn’t much upwards mobility, and damned little SIDEWARDS mobility.
This pretty much means that whatever you are doing now you will be doing for a long time to come. Which kind of sucks, and DOES frustrate the workers. The frustration is there in the public businesses - try finding a salesperson in a store. Quite often you can’t - and if you do, they’ll do their damnedest to get away from you. The frustration comes out in the time it takes to have a simple request answered from a German company.
The frustration is there, and it is reflected in the long vacation times. There are loads of people who don’t like there jobs, are convinced that they can’t get a different job, and aren’t going to try to find a new job. They’ll stick to a job they hate for years (in the case of my father in law, decades) in preference to trying to find something new and better - but they’ll be grouchy and surly on the job the whole time. Since they can’t leave, they take a long vacation some time during the year to escape the dreariness of their lives. Ask a German about Ballermann 6. You’ll get a good description and probably a personal story about the place from just about any middle/lower class worker in the country. (Ballermann 6 is an address in an area in Mallorca that is a German vacation spot. Cheap vacations, rabbit warren hotels, loads of Sangria and other booze.)
The social system does save some folks from really bad times - but for quite a few it is a comfortable hammock instead of being a safety net. Tell me how a system that lets 30 something women hang about unemployed with an apartment, utilities, food, clothing, TV, and (occasionally) vacation paid by what amounts to welfare is a good thing when it simultaneously leaves 70 year old grandmothers barely getting enough to eat - Granny gets her husbands retirement, and it isn’t enough but she doesn’t get welfare because she’s got the retirement money… It happens.
Houses are a once in a life time deal over here. There are a couple of reasons for this.
First of all is that houses are typically built (these days) with the goal of building the best damn house you can get with all the cool stuff built in right from the start. The guy across the street from us is still working on his. He’s been at it for over a year, and they just moved in in January. The place isn’t finished yet. What is finished looks more like he’s building a hotel, though. Marble and granite in hallways and on the stairs, big assed house that has a separate living area for the kids, full basement with work room, party room, and sauna, a huge fricking balcony off the master bedroom. Fine, I wish him well. He’s a construction worker who actually does road work. Tell me again how consumerism and keeping up with the Jones’ isn’t typical.
The next thing about houses is that home owners thing they own gold mines instead of homes. Before my wife and I decided to build, we looked at existing homes. No where did we find an existing house for a price comparable to what we paid to buy a plot and build our house. A tumbling down crackerbox with fire damage and ceilings so low that there were places I couldn’t stand up straight in went for more than we’ve got invested in our new house. Just for the record, I’m only 5 feet 10 inches tall.
One more thing about houses:
You can’t have someone take over your loan. If you need to sell your house before you’ve paid for it, you must sell the damned thing for more than the loan+interest so that you can pay back your home loan plus damages for early payback - which means that whoever buys your house must effectivel finance it twice. He must pay you enough to payback your loan, and to do that he must take out a humongous loan and pay interest on it. Sucks. I may be wrong about this, but I’ve spoken to bankers and to home owners and only gotten blank stares at the concept of having the new buyer take over a loan.
What all of this does is make it pretty fucking hard for the average German to even consider building a house. The situation is bad enough that for some years now you’ve been able to get financial assistance from the government when you build or rennovate a house.
The much vaunted german medical system is also not that damned whoopy. If I ever get majorly sick - heart attack or whatever - I’m dragging my ass to the US and I’ll worry about paying the bills when I get better, cause the chances are good that I’d never have to worry about bills again if I stayed here.
Yes, you’ve got pretty much guaranteed access to a doctor here. Yes, you’ve got insurance and it covers the cost of medication to the point where raising the deductible from less than 10 EUR to still less than 10 EUR caused screaming fits, and where a once per quarter payment of 10 EUR for a doctor visit has caused major concerns that people won’t go to the doctor aas often as they should.
So fucking what. There are way too many doctors who don’t give a damn (see above about mobility and frustration) and even the ones who are good and who care (if you can find one) are restricted in what they can do. Also, Germany lags the US by a great deal in treatment and therapy - and partially in just plain patient care. In many hospitals, you don’t get drinking water for free. You must buy bottled spring water from the hospital (at full price) or else have someone bring it in for you. For some weird reason, though, they will give you a nasty tasting “tea” that looks like someone waved a tea bag over warm ditchwater for a couple of seconds.
Sorry. I get carried away.
From what I’ve seen, I’d describe the “German Dream” for many Germans like this:
Hold on to your job no matter what, ‘cause you ain’t gettin’ a better one and drag home a full case of beer every Saturday so that you drink enough beer everyday to forget that tomorrow is going to be just as frustrating and pissy as today was.
Which sounds a whole lot like how I know a good many Americans in less well to-do areas describe their own lives.
I am not down on Germany. Don’t ever think that. I’ve lived here for 16 years, and have had plenty of opportunity to leave - there was a time when I could have simply walked into the airport, laid down cash, and gone back to the US. I didn’t do it becuase I like the country, and I’ve met a lot of people I like over here. I did not stay because of my wife - I met her after I’d already been here for seven or eight years.
I do think that people need to know that it is not some rosy paradise. It ain’t. It is a pretty pleasant place to be so long as you don’t hit the downside - which is pretty much true of any country.