You’re joking, right?
You asked for a one word reply. I gave mine. I explained where others might have gotten theirs. You accused me of immaturity and failing to think about other countries. Now you say I’m being aggressive and defensive?
Wow. We’re obviously reading different threads. In any case, since this is yours, and since you would rather be offended (it appears) than discuss things, I’ll bow out.
Julie
Julie,
I think you should re-read the OP.
By the way: where did I accused you of “immaturity”?
And didn’t you just attack me again when I joked that I must be brainswashed by something (evil) because my posts started to show up more then once?
The first of many things that go through my mind are the verses of the Koran that that continue, even today, to inspire so many Muslims into emulating the one they call the “Prophet”.
Verses such as the following gems from the Koran:
Koran 60:4 “Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone.”
Koran 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you.”
Koran 9:5 “Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, capture and besiege them and prepare for them every kind of ambush.”
Koran 9:29 “Fight those that believe not in Allah - such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book- until they pay tribute out of hand AND HAVE BEEN HUMBLED.”
A great many other verses in a similar vein can be found throughout the Koran and in the much more voluminous Hadiths.
In a sense, though, your question is not very meaningful to a person who has not taken the trouble to spend some time studying the holy books of Islam.
We are both students of Islam and I am sure you will agree that a study of the holy books of Islam is the only sure way to gain some insight and understanding into the mind of Islam’s founder, as well as the minds of those who somehow find the words of Mohammed (see some examples above) so inspiring that they seek to emulate Mohammed in word and deed.
I’m sure you will agree that only after a reasonable amount of studying the source documents can a person’s impression about something be based on a firm footing.
I’ll take “I Slam” for $500, Trebeck…
My own opinion is that the leadership of many Islamic states like Saudi Arabia are directly responsible for Islamic terrorism directed against the U.S. They have used the U.S. and Israel as scapegoats for their own failures. The problem is also partly of U.S. origin because we have a history of propping up dictatorial regimes like the Saudis and everybody knows it. So the people who buy the Saudi line hate us because we’re the Great Satan, and the people who hate the Saudis hate us because we’re propping the Saudis up. We lose either way.
That said, I also think that Islam is particularly prone to provide intellectual and moral comfort to fundies and terrorists. And the sexually uptight mores in some Arab nations tend to produce deeply frustrated men who are more prone to become terrorists than those who live in more sexually relaxed climes. Toss in widespread poverty and unemployment (see dictatorships) and you gotcher terrorist breeding ground.
Yes, here is Alan OB again with his we are “both”… “students of Islam”.
I said before that if you want a discussion, you need to come up with an issue to debate on.
That is not to be found on a website who cookes you a meal of words and lines out of Al Qur’an, leaving out the former and next ones of the verse in question and lumping the whole toghather as a meaningless nothing.
I also said before that the study of and commenting on hadieth is not something that can be done by someone not familiar with the whole tricky issue. Which you are not.
So if you want an advise since you say you are a "student of Islam: start with getting yourself a GOOD translation of Al Qur’an an read it, instead of waisting your time on such foolish websites.
Evil Captor,
You are wrong if you think that acts of destabilisation and terorism are solely directed at the USA.
That is only the very recent evolution. We deal with such groups since decades. Inside our countries. They have very different goals then you imagine.
About “sexual frustration”… Well I could start talking about the sexual frustrations in Western societies as well and if you think that men become extremists because of “sexcual frustration” then every Catholic priest should be one.
But poverty is indeed a factor for many things yet it isn’t the result of “dictatorship” but of a variety of intertwined and interacting factors.
“Pants”.
No, really. But that’s my first reaction to most things. That, or “Squirrel.”
My second reaction? Science. The first way I learned about Islam was in the history of mathematics, of algebra.
Third is “Submission.”
After that, it’s no longer a honest reaction.
(underlining mine)
I don’t want to go beyond the scope of your OP, but that is a huge can of beans you’re opening there. Sure, one could posit – as you do – that there’s a certain amount of dogmatism inherent in the education anyone receives. You know, teachers are only human, history is written by the winners, etc., etc. But without falling into the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, I think the real purpose of education is to give you the tools to go beyond dogma. Which, again, painting with the same broad brush, runs contrary to the interests of religion itself.
As to the particular teachings of Islam, I admit to knowing little, but from the outside looking in, it does seem to have an inordinate amount of – dogmatic – influence on its followers, i.e., treatment of women, sexual repression, etc. In fact, I think that is the greatest schism between East and West. Whereas religion, in general, has lost influence in the West (although an argument could be made that the US is amongst its last bastions) the MENA region appears to be heavily immersed in it. Politics and religion: not a mix that I particularly care for.
As for American jingoism, sure, it’s there. Doesn’t bother me any – 'cept when it’s used to launch unprovoked wars. But that’s a whole 'nother topic, ne’s pas?
Funny you should bring up Spain, since I was born and raised in Madrid. Small world isn’t it? But no, methinks you have your countries mixed-up, Spaniards haven’t nailed themselves to any crosses for quite some time that I know of – there are still a bunch of, IMO, idiots, self-flagellating, but that’s about the extent of it. I say that if you’re going to be into SMBD, you should try to have someone really attractive doing it with you. However, that nasty little export of ours, the nailing bit, is apparently still going strong in the Philippines – which I guess makes them bigger idiots. As for Orthodox Jews in general, yes, I find their customs quite taxing as well, but I did say major religions.
And yes, you are right. Those frequent pictures I see of mass Friday prayers – combined with the frequent daily prayer requirements – have had an influence in the way I view Islam.
Religion of Peace[sup]TM[/sup]
Followed by:
Jihad
Suicide bombers
70/72 virgins
This is the image as presented on the news since 9/11. Note I did not say as presented by the news. They take great care, it seems to me, to present various and sundry Islamic terrorist groups/activities as distinct and separate from the “teachings of Islam”. Though they never go into detail on the exact nature of those teachings. Failure of news programs as I see it, both network and cable.
I seem to remember Muslim women being the victims of mass rape in the former Yugoslavia. Is that what you were referring to? That was Christians who did that wasn’t it?
In response to the OP:
Mecca. Or Kaaba.
The pictures I see, the ones taken at the Grand Mosque during the pilgrimage season, are amazing. Huge crowds in rings moving slowly circling the Kaaba building. Trying to imagine how many people are in those crowds boggles the mind.
Aldebaran,
I think you’re being a bit unfair to jsgoddess, even though I respect where you’re coming from.
The OP specifically asks what the first word that comes in your mind is, when hearing the word Islam. That sort of game isn’t always going to generate PC responses, nor even responses that make sense to everyone.
The first thing that pops into my head when I hear “Megan’s Law” on television is “cute little hotty.” I’m not a pedophile, but I dated a Megan, and she was indeed, a cute little hotty.
“Thousands and thousands of 9/11 's…” would be 3,000,000 dead people + 3,000,000 dead people + … how many times exactly? Can you provide a source for that?
First let me say I found the “correction” regarding Islam being part III to be silly. It is indeed part of your theology, but by objective fact, Islam is third in line. In so far as you are speaking to non-believers, expecting them to adopt a theological conciet of Islam strikes me as tedious, at best.
All well and good, however there are some interesting and serious works by Muslim Arab sociologists on issues of sexual frustration in the region (tied with economic frustration) as being sources of radicalism.
Not perhaps Islam itself, but the sociological reality of the modern state and economies.
That might have been a cute joke about sex, however the subject was rape. This is way below poor taste.
The first word that pops into my mind when I think of Islam is “faith”; that it is a faith, like, in every way, to other faiths; Christianity, Buddahism, Judaism, and many other faiths which allow human beings to carry on. Faiths do not need logic to exist; they simply are. Human beings act as we do. We may say that we act because of our faith, but I think that in truth we do not know why. We make a “leap of faith”, believing that what we do is right. And I respect that, so long as what someone does according to their faith does not infringe upon my or other human beings’ rights to life, and to believe in what they believe. Faith can be good, if it allows one to be a good person within our community. It can be bad, if because of it one follows “scriptures” which dictate, allow, or excuse one to behave in a way which is destructive to human life or living.
Sincerely,
Chas
yes click the link above it…
Aldebaran,
My good friend, and fellow student of Islam.
I own several translations of the Koran (Plus a variety of other holy books covering more than half a dozen religions).
The more prosaic translation of the Koranic verses is by a devout Moslem named N. J. Dawood. In his 1973 edition, the Foreword rather fulsomely describes the Koran as: “The earliest and by far the finest work of classical Arabic prose.”
So it would be absurd to believe that N. J. Dawood was deliberately going out of his way to make the great number of Mohammed’s venomous utterances, as recorded in the Koran, seem worse than they actually are.
None of the editions of the Koran that I own, or the translations that can easily be found on the web, differ materially from each other or the standard published translations, so your objection concerning allegedly inaccurate translations has no validity.
In any event, your original question was simply what pops into a person’s mind whenever one hears the word “Islam”.
As you requested, I provided you with a response on how I react.
I also suggested that everyone should study the Koran and the Hadiths and form their own conclusions.
How could you, as a devout Muslim, possibly object to that?
I know of no sweetened up translation of the Koran so anyone who wishes to do so can, and should, read and judge the Koran and the Hadiths by the words contained in those books, no matter what translation they choose to study.
Ahh an insult! How utterly sweet and charming Aldebaran. Of course I’m aware of such distinctions, however you may have forgotten the OP. It was whatever pops into my mind you were interested in, not views I actually subscribe to or even agree with. In that light it makes no difference weather whatever inspired such first thoughts are Gods own word from the flaming bush or read in a Mickey Mouse cartoon. But if you insist…
Dig…dig…dig… here’s one where nine boys of middle-east origin are charged with raping a 14 year old Danish girl.
http://www.systime.dk/BogWebs/MellemGodeMennesker_77839587/Jyllandsposten/en_artikel/fuck_you.htm
You can even understand the title. Why don’t you do a google on “gang rape Australia Lebanese” you’ll find plenty you can understand.
You will of course point out to me where specifically it was I declared that “what I read in the newspapers is the whole truth”. Because I’m somewhat confused how you were able to twist my words in such a strange direction? That said, and completely OT, perhaps it’s just as stupid to disbelieve everything you read and hear as to it is to believe everything.
Is this a thread for Arabist only? Maybe you forgot that you did not ask for first ekspert thoughs on Islam. Perhaps you have been reading too much Arabic lately, to be able to rightly comprehend western left to right sentences. But if you read my sentence again, I think you’ll find nowhere I claim I’m fairly well read “in the history of Islam”. Which, I’ll be the first to admit, I’m certainly not. For to tell you the truth, I find Islam a foolish religion – even as religions go, and by and large the subject quite boring. By the way, this is the second time in one post you put words in my mouth – please refrain from that.
You don’t seem to grasp the OP - which did not ask for an in-depth analyse of the clash between Europeans and Islamic empires I might be tempted to say. I can certainly assure you that when my first though turns to something like gang rape, it has nothing to do with the battle of Poitiers or the massacre of Lesbos and everything to do with recent events exposed in the news (truthfull or not). Even so, I’m quite certain we can agree that for most of Europe (outside Greece perhaps) the pivotal events in history, while important, is not the clash with Islam, but something much nearer; like Denmark’s some million wars with Sweden (wherein quite a few the Swedes did indeed gang rape, as did the Danes). Yet when I think Sweden, the first thing that pops into my mind is not gang rape (beautiful women / pine forests / over regulation) – now why is that? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Sweden has not as such been engaged in sending armies burning and pillaging through Denmark so much these last few centuries.