WinstonSmith,
If you need more data to support your statement about “gang rape” by Islamic youth in Europe and Australia, just Google “tournante+rape”.
Yes, but since I didn’t say any such thing your point is moot. But feel free to find another country than the US that’s routinely described as the Great Satan in Islamic countries.
**That is only the very recent evolution. We deal with such groups since decades. Inside our countries. They have very different goals then you imagine.
**I know that many fundamentalist terror groups have goals that are centered much closer to home, in fact bin Laden’s attack on the U.S. was part of a long-range plan to sieze power in Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East.
About “sexual frustration”… Well I could start talking about the sexual frustrations in Western societies as well and if you think that men become extremists because of “sexcual frustration” then every Catholic priest should be one.
Yeah, but we’re not talking about Catholicism and Catholic preists, we’re talking about Islam and the Middle East. Try to stay on topic. And has been pointed out, Islamic scholars have looked hard at this issue too. I came across it as a result of conversation with a group of women who had relationships with Middle Eastern men (on another message board). I learned a lot there.
But poverty is indeed a factor for many things yet it isn’t the result of “dictatorship” but of a variety of intertwined and interacting factors.
I think a fair case could be made that the dictators and oligarchies America has propped up have not done a very good job of building their economies and making sure their people share in it. As you say, a lotta reasons for that, but generally when governemtns are more accountable to the people, they treat the people better. In any event the source doesn’t matter, the result is still lots of terrorist fodder.
Of course. But the same can be said when people raise their children as atheist: they still will pass to them the dogmas of their way of life.
And that is exactly what Islam is: a religion that also includes a way of life.
It is not “immersed” in it. Is is part of it. You can’t escape it since you are day and night in the middle of it. Even if you aren’t such a great Muslim or even atheist or Jew or Christian: When living in a Muslim country you are confronted with it, always and everywhere.
As for “sexual repression”…The fact that sex before or outside marriage isn’t permitted is not something Islamic-only.
Segregation of genders and gender-role patterns is also not something Islamic only. And in fact was very much part of society until recently in Western societies and in mny cases still is.
Yes, and that is the difficulty people not familiar with Islam have to understand. In theory, no separation between both is a possibility.
Well, probably there are seperate cases where it is still a tradition. I had a report that on the last good friday this crucifixion ritual was still taking place (somewhere) in Spain with focus on the fact that a man was celebrating his xxxthe time (don’t remember exactly, I think is was the 27the time. )
I remember this because I brought it up on an other message board where some people were trying to let Shi’a Muslims pass for fanatical self-flagellating medieval retarded.
As it has on most outsiders. I don’t know exactly why they most of the time seem to find find it “disturbing”.
There are churches, cathedrals, synagoges, temples all over the world where people gather to pray. Yet Muslims gathering for friday prayers is seen as something very special.
Salaam. A
In my opinion correcting a wrong understanding is only correcting a wrong understanding.
To think that people with a misunderstanding of a certain issue aren’t capable to understand an explanation as to why their view isn’t correct according to Islam (and the other 2 religions mentioned) is in my opinion denegrating them.
Of course there are. And one can relate everything to everything and beneath the surface everything is also related to everything.
Is it the purpose of sociology to find and expose such relationships and links.
Yet to state that segregation in Muslim societies is the cause for recrutement by terrorist organisations is a great stretch. Because then only men who keep themselves to this Islamic command would become part of such groups. I don’t think this is reflecting reality.
Of course one can find the link between economic frustration leading to the impossibility to get married. That is indeed a daily reality and cause of great frustration, with all the consequences. And some detail to reflect on: The more “modern” the society, the more problems such young men have to find a bride. Young girsl want men with jobs and money. You hear the complains about this all over the place.
That is exactly what people from the outsight looking in fail to see.
They place “Islam” as the cause of problems while
the clash between values,
modernity/tradition,
expectations/frustration,
poverty/outside influence creating hope to a better the life,
exploding birth rate heavily weighting on education system and economy in general,
the incapibility of the State to cope with the problems connected with of all of this…
are played at by groups who hide their political aspirations behind fundamentalism and paint the well known concept of “Islam Is The Solution” in their speeches.
This is of course an incomplete sketch, but Islam has only a role because those who play that card can use the possibility to give people the impression that it is “the solution”.
We could debate on it wether and to which extend this suggestion holds any truth.
Salaam. A
Well it was not intended to be, and not even intended to be a joke about sex. I didn’t talk about sex when referring to the women in a man’s life. I talked about their love and care.
And I was mocking the way this case was presented by the poster.
First thing I think of?
Muhammad
Second thing?
Al Qur’an
Please don’t tell me that I’m the only one who thought of Muhammad first!
Would you be so kind as to inform me what the “atheist way of life” is? See, while I don’t like to use labels for my beliefs, I fall in the atheist’s camp vis-a-vis man-made gods, while being an agnostic/weak atheist with regards to the whole beginning of the Universe/after life business.
And yet no one handed the “lifestyle manual.” I feel deprived. And so should my 13 year old. For he is being raised to make up his own mind on matters of religion. And he is encouraged to read the Bible as much as he is The Demon Haunted World.
Help! I must be doing something wrong!
A distinction without difference? And part of the problem as I see it: way too much religious influence, short of emphasis on critical thinking skills.
Re:Politics and religion.
**
Well, in as much as I believe in freedom from religion and people’s right to choose their beliefs, I strongly object to mixing the two. However, that is obvioulsy not my call to make. FWIW, if Muslims wish to continue going down that path, I wish them well. However, I think reform is inevitable.
**
An isolated nutter nailing himslef on the cross hardly makes your original case that it “still goes on in Spain.” That’s what I objected to. In fact, I abhor fanatism of any kind, religious or otherwise. My point was and is that religion appears to have a much stronger hold in amongst Muslims than it does amongst western society. And I aportion part of your societal problems to that fact. However, if you do not think it is a problem to begin with, then we’ll just agree to disagree.
**
What I find ‘special’ is the fact that this is an open call for public prayer. Reminds me of the end of recess bell. I hated Holy Week while growing up in Spain for much the same reason. And I am certainly glad that the oppressive atmosphere one felt in those days is nothing but a (fading) relic.
Well, first word that comes to mind is “sufi” because most of the Islamic writings I have enjoyed were from a Sufi perspective. FWIW, first thing that comes to mind when I hear the word “Christianity” is “Catholic” and for similar reasons – my favorite Christian writers have been or are Catholics. (And no, I’m neither Muslim nor Catholic.)
Allah
As salaam u alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakutuhu Aldeberan. It is good to see another brother who doesn’t kow-tow to the Wahhabbi agenda.
Masalama,
Martin
Aldebaran,
You asked what did I base my opinion on before Sept 11?
Here’s what I’d posted here Feb 2001.
Herehttp://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=63683
“What is the first word…”?
Fundamentalism.
Image?
Sunny dessert.
Thought?
A great religion which, in some parts of the world, has been hijacked and exploited by egotistical criminals for their own selfish ends. I have many muslim friends, and the disconnect between their own inner beauty/kindness/generosity of spirit and the intersect of current, horrible events and Islam is a confounding situation to me.
Could you level the same charges at other religions? Maybe, maybe not, it’s irrelevant, since you asked about Islam, not another religion.
Salaam to you.
In response to OP:
- Waste of Time
- A Fairy Tale (like all other religions)
- Opium of the poor
- Smelly
Those who are certain about Allah, Islam, God or any religion may want to take note of this:
“Certainty” is that state of ignorance which has yet to recognize itself.
We have another 10 billion years to go before making any solid conclusions.
Everyone should be prepared at times to re-examine the foundations of their beliefs, to view the world from others’ perspectives, and to seriously consider the possibility that what they accept as the Absolute Truth may, in fact, not be true at all --except Aldebaran, of course, because he knows he is right and has the final “Answer”.
That’s funny, because the United States actively support the Saudis and had supported the Taliban, because it was in “US interests” to keep rulers out that were for nationalizing resources, opposed to unjust peace with Israel, and otherwise a threat to the status quo.
I don’t understand this connection, because in my mind it doesn’t go far enough. Take Egypt, for example, where the rulers are cruel and oppressive and the Muslim parties are, by in large, reformists and in some cases progressive.
So if we want to look at any sample of counries with oppresive governments, Egypt and Saudi Arabia being the two prominent ones, really the underlying connection is US support. How many countries receive large amounts of US support and DON’T actively oppress large numbers of people? Too few…
The Egyptian Green Party? Please, that may be partially true, but the Muslim Brotherhood and that group which shot up those Swiss tourists were no Boy Scouts…
I am going to need a cite for where the US supported the Taliban to prevent nationalization of the resources of Afghanistan, and/or to prevent peace with Israel.
Keep in mind that the Taliban did not exist as a separate entity until 1994.
Are we talking about food aid, that pipeline that never went thru, or Stingers for the Afghan resistance? Because we certainly were against the status quo of the Soviet invasion.
Regards,
Shodan
Your cite, sir:
http://www.rense.com/general14/rise.htm
I realize rense.com contains a lot of nutso articles, but this one is from The Guardian. I am indeed talking about the pipeline.
Salaam aleikum brother Martin,
Well yes… I have good reason to think that I’m not particularly loved by the hadieth worshippers.
It’s always nice to meet an American Muslim.
It is in part why I started posting on US message board. To find out first hand how Islam was “lived” in the USA, because my friends there aren’t Muslim and I don’t have personal contact with Muslim communities in the USA.
I was very pleasently surprized, because I find the view of many of them very refreshing. I think it is because there are so many converts among them, who look at Islam with an unclouded mind and the exitement of their discovery.
Salaam. A
Morpheus,
Ah yes, I see where you were coming from.
You are not the only person on this globe with views like this, so it isn’t something spectacular new to me.
But surely - since I have read some of the replies you’ve got - you must be aware by now that your idea contains an amount of disbalance?
Salaam. A
(quote)“Certainty” is that state of ignorance which has yet to recognize itself.(/quote)
There is no certainty in my mind about anything else then the existence of God.
Since you seems to be convinced that there is no such existence of God, you show the same certainty in the opposite direction, no?
Or aren’t you certain that God doesn’t exist?
Salaam. A