[QUOTE=WhyNot]
We’ve (you and I) already had this discussion in another thread and I don’t see the need to retread it here. To jog your memory: physical and sexual abuse victims being shunned while the abusers are sheltered from social and legal sanction.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, I don’t remember. (vaguely, really, and certainly not in any detail)
But I agree, no need to retread it hear.
[QUOTE=Steve MB]
jIH yImev jatlh DIvI’ Hol.
[/QUOTE]
Mi ne parolas la anglan (aux la francan aux la cxinan aux la hispanan…) I’d be really surprised in there was a JW in the Toronto area who speaks Esperanto. 
[QUOTE=Unauthorized Cinnamon]
They were actually incredibly naive about their religion. I think they get very narrow training - talk about what a terrible state the world is in, monopolize on people’s misfortunes and fears, and then tell them all about the magical person who not only can make them happy now, but provides justice and truth in the afterlife.
It’s been a while, but what I remember is that they were totally unaware that there are two accounts of creation in the bible, and they don’t match. Sure, some people will argue with you that they do in fact match (tortured logic follows), but at least they are aware of the issue. These people had no clue.
They also just assumed that the bible was self-evidently true. I asked them how they knew that - what extrinsic evidence shows it to be reliable? I believe I used my old example that I could write on a cocktail napkin, “This is the Word of God,” but that doesn’t make it true or believable. Again, they didn’t have a halfway decent answer. I’d expect an appeal to prophecy at least, but IIRC, they didn’t even pull out that old chestnut.
It was pretty clear they were used to dealing with people who have vague cultural notions of God and Christianity, but who have never once sat down and thought about what they believe, and whether things make sense. Confronted with a thoughtful atheist who had explored her beliefs, they were stymied.
[/QUOTE]
Do you think the JWs who came to your door had never had anyone say [essentially] “what extrinsic evidence shows it to be reliable?” The JWs you spoke to you have heard this rationale a thousand times. Yopu may think it is devastating logic, but to them it is your chestnut.
JW1: How’d that call go?
JW2: Not well. They brought up the “How do we know the bible is the word of God?”, and; “What if I wrote a book and said it was from God?” argument.
JW1: Oh, that old chestnut.
JW2: Yea, she used a cocktail napkin.
JW1: Oh well. We’ll move forwrd.
It is true that that most JWs encounter "people [who] have vague cultural notions of God and Christianity, but who have never once sat down and thought about what they believe, and whether things make sense. " This is absolutely true.
In the US, most people profess to be Christian. However not 1 in 1000 could tell you where the Sermon on the Mount was (from memory) or what the 23 Psalm said. The most prevalent sentiment is apathy, a blissful ignorance. (even about their own beliefs)
Yet, there are some thoughful, informed people. You’d like to think, maybe, that you are a rarity among JWs, but you are not. So I’m guessing that what you perceive to by “stymied” is simply a disinterest in either arguling or debating.
Ever had an insurance person try to sell you insurance; maybe even whole life? if you lay into them about the dubiousness of insurance, and whole life in particular, how many do you think would get all keyed up and want to argue/debate? Not many. If there is no sale opportunity, they will move on.
The JWs knocking on your door have zero interest in debating you, or proving anything to you. (or themselves) They are quite willing to “make a defense of their faith”, but that doesn’t mean arguing with someone who is hostile to their message. They are interested in talking to people who are receptive to their message. You may take pride in showing them a thing or two, but I can tell you that what you perceive to be confusion is an unwillingness to debate.
I can’t tell you what verses they were because they were randomly brought up at the time they tried to convert me. Just bring out your bible and show them. Interpretation of the bible is why every Christian branch exists. Take any two and something is different in the bible. Some are very obscure. I think the only real difference in the two Lutheran groups is One believes in communion representing God’s body and blood, while the other says it is God’s body and blood. A big deal if you are a Lutheran.
[QUOTE=the raindog]
Actually, I don’t remember. (vaguely, really, and certainly not in any detail)
But I agree, no need to retread it hear.
[/QUOTE]
It was somewhere back in February or March, as I can tell from this other post I made in another thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8323008&postcount=31 ; but Search is not being polite to me at the moment.
[QUOTE=Sunspace]
Mi ne parolas la anglan (aux la francan aux la cxinan aux la hispanan…) I’d be really surprised in there was a JW in the Toronto area who speaks Esperanto.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, but would you be as surprised as you would be if there was one who speaks Klingon?
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
It was somewhere back in February or March, as I can tell from this other post I made in another thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8323008&postcount=31 ; but Search is not being polite to me at the moment.
[/QUOTE]
Haven’t read the whole thread yet, but you told the story of your acquaintance being abused in this thread .
[QUOTE=the raindog]
I have zero interest in debating a web site, especially one that is near unreadable. What are your thoughts? What do you know of the NWT?
[/QUOTE]
As an atheist, I don’t realy have a dog in the fight. That’s why I just quoted a website (and acknowledged that it contains a bucket of opinion to go with the facts it offers) and let it go with a shrug. Since you ask, I think the language is clunky and ugly, and since I’m interested in the Bible (to the extent that I am these days) only for its aesthetic and historical value, the gets a big raspberry from me. I also think it was translated to conform to existing JW beliefs in many areas.
[QUOTE=Happy Wanderer]
Sunday Morning. Me in my bathrobe answering the knock, hung over as hell. Open door. See pair with copies of “Awake!”. Yes, I flashed them my weener. As they beat it down the hallway I yelled “I guess your vision is ok, so why didn’t you see the No Solicitors sign!” They threw some propaganda in the laundry room as they made the bend to the door leading to the street. For a fat older couple, they were amazingly agile. 
Yes, I would do it again.
[/QUOTE]
You’re full of shit.
You never did that.
Maybe you would have liked to, but you never did.
Pitiful.
I get hit more by the Mormons than the JW’s. My main defense is asking “What would someone who left your religion say about it?” I would never join a group without hearing the other side.
“No thanks, not interested” works, but if they don’t leave you could do what my mum did once. She was working on dinner one night and was using a BIIIIG honkin’ knife. A JW knocked on the door and when she went to answer it, she forgot to put the knife down. The poor JW saw the knife, looked at mum in horror, and left.
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
I get hit more by the Mormons than the JW’s. My main defense is asking “What would someone who left your religion say about it?”
[/QUOTE]
Heh. We have at least a couple of people right here on the SDMB who meet that very description.
I’ve had JW’s come to the door on several occasions, and I’ve always said, very politely “Sorry, but Im not interested.”
They say “Thanks anyway”, or “Have a good morning”, or something similar, and then I close the door and they walk away.
Case closed.
I’ve never seen any of them get pushy, in fact, they are specifically instructed not to, and that’s why I believe most of the “clever” (read: crass and rude) responses posited by several poster are a load of crap.
I’ve been aqquainted with a few JW’s and some evangelical Christians over the years, and believe me, telling them you are an apprentice of the Dark Lord is not going to get them high-tailing it for the stairs.
You think you’re the first one to pull that line of hooey? They’re used to it.
That’s why I think the majority of those who post their clever responses, in which they are the Overwhelming Victor With Ultimate Cool are liars.
Chances are, you just blubbered something non-sensical and then retreated behind your closed door.
This reminds me of an old episode of “Simon & Simon”.
In the episode, the older brother, who was Vietnam vet, went to a veterans get-together. The subject came up of returning vets being spat upon. A vet gets up and says “Yeah! I got spit on at the airport, so I grabbed the guy and kicked his ass!” All the other vets cheer.
But the older Simon says “Why don’t you tell us what really happened?” After which the veteran admits that he didn’t do anything, just went and cried in the men’s room.
So why don’t we just cut the shit, OK?
[QUOTE=Zambini57]
That’s why I think the majority of those who post their clever responses, in which they are the Overwhelming Victor With Ultimate Cool are liars.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, I’ll have you know that I openly admitted to my blubbering of nonsense! (Seriously though, the “no cats” thing made sense in context, but it’s a long story and actually has little to do with witnessing. It does, however, have a lot to do with cats.)
Anyway, I have either professed a particular religion firmly–it doesn’t even seem to matter what religion it is, so long as you’re firm enough that you don’t want to be converted–or else told them flat out I wasn’t interested and in all but one very, very odd case it has worked just fine. It’s not that difficult.
I spent a few weeks once trying to sell advertising and it gave me a very good grasp of what it must be like to be one of these folks. Nine times out of ten, I bet they–like someone in sales–prefer a simple, firm, “Not interested.” The convoluted stories, the wishy-washy “oh, I can’t talk about that now, I’m busy”, and the aggressive responses are unpleasant and waste their time. It isn’t ignorance that keeps them from debating with you when you put them on the spot. They just recognize it isn’t worth the effort. I’ve had very fun, in-depth discussions of spirituality with Mormon missionaries and Witnesses alike. They’re not all stupid people. They’re just putting in their hours for their church.
I will say that the JW’s are the only group who have come into my office. Coming into a place where people are working is inexcusible. I told them to leave immediately or I would call the police. They left.
[QUOTE=Steve MB]
jIH yImev jatlh DIvI’ Hol.
[/QUOTE]
Please, eat me first!
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
As an atheist, I don’t realy have a dog in the fight. That’s why I just quoted a website (and acknowledged that it contains a bucket of opinion to go with the facts it offers) and let it go with a shrug. Since you ask, I think the language is clunky and ugly, and since I’m interested in the Bible (to the extent that I am these days) only for its aesthetic and historical value, the gets a big raspberry from me. I also think it was translated to conform to existing JW beliefs in many areas.
[/QUOTE]
The bolding is mine.
Show me.
Given that you have an interest in this, it should be easy. While you’re at it, show me the “clunky and ugly” parts, and their more elegant counterparts.
Show me.
[QUOTE=Zambini57]
<SNIP>
So why don’t we just cut the shit, OK?
[/QUOTE]
Oh my god! You have totally found me out! I have never, I confess, yelled “TEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!” at the top of my lungs…
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
…They’ve all been very polite and respectful, no one’s asked so much as a single “why not?” or pressed the issue in any way whatsoever.
ETA: I despise the Jehovah’s Witnesses for other reasons, don’t get me wrong. I think they’re evil and despicable and the world would not be a worse place for their sudden disappearance off this planet. But of all their many faults, they have never been rude to me.
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s extremely rude to knock on someone’s door early in the morning and then have to be told several times by the occupant that they are not interested in talking to you about your religion nor do they want your pamphlets. They will not take one “no” for an answer. It matters not a whit if the JW’s are polite about it, it is still rude for them to do this.
[QUOTE=Zambini57]
I’ve never seen any of them get pushy, in fact, they are specifically instructed not to, and that’s why I believe most of the “clever” (read: crass and rude) responses posited by several poster are a load of crap.
[/QUOTE]
See my above response. Yeah, you can be polite and rude at the same time, and they were. I tried politely asking them to leave and not come back. It would usually take a couple "no, thank you"s on each visit before they left and they’d always try to leave pamphlets, even when asked not to do so. Maybe that doesn’t fit your definition of pushy but it does mine. They should leave on the first “no, thank you” and not try to foist off their materials, if they don’t then they are being pushy and rude. I’d always ask that they not visit me again and take me off their list but they still came back. Each new visit I got less polite, until I had to become rude. In the end it seems my crassness of dress was what convinced them not to come back. I really hate uninvited visitors and salespeople coming to my home and they are just salespeople. I don’t owe them any courtesies when they have repeatedly shown me disrespect by ignoring my wishes to be left alone.
[QUOTE=Zambini57]
That’s why I think the majority of those who post their clever responses, in which they are the Overwhelming Victor With Ultimate Cool are liars.
[/QUOTE]
At least this post is general, and not the laser targeted snap you had before against whoever it was.
At any rate, who are you to know? What do you know what people is like IRL?
You are right in that every JW that has come to my door has been polite at the moment. But when you factor in that the same group of ladies has come to my door twice a week for months and my response has always been “Thanks, I am not interested” (half the time without even opening the door, the other half in boxers), that is not polite. Unless they have serious memory issues, they know I am not interested.
I moved to “we are not interested” (without the “thanks”) for a couple of weeks. Then it went to “not interested”. Then to “as usual, not interested”. Then to “oh, please”. Then to “go to hell”. Then I started trying to have fun with this. They are total pissers who insist on coming to my door, knowing full well that I am going to tell them off. I just try to oblige.
“this is private property” became more or less standard for a while. Then they started calling from the sidewalk (I keep my door and plenty of windows open to the street). *Nitzer Ebb * and *Bauhaus * became saturday morning classics that I played when I saw them coming down the street. *Stigmata Martyr * got a special reaction from them.
“We worship Beelzebub” and “we already have a real God” were fun for a while. Then it was back to the private property bit.
The pamphlet came later. This friend of my wife tried to get us into this granola bar scam and left all the literature. I used those the day they sent me “the guy”. The Guy seems to be the head confuser of their group. The one for the toughest stains of sin, like myself, apparently. I was prepared for a moment like this. I talk real fast. He had to hear me for quite a while. All this through the screen door. Pity that he had an umbrella to shade him.
Then it was back to the same old ladies from the sidewalk. That didn’t last long, though. We haven’t seen them in quite a while. Maybe my neighbours signed a petition to stop my music.
So yes, people tend to be nice. Yes, they are not cartoon nightmares. No, it is not right to make me be nice every flipping time. Yes, people in the end break down and abandon civility under pressure. That’s life. How do they figure that making people break into uncivility is doing the work of God is beyond me, but what do I know.