The buckeye thread.
To properly appreciate it, you have to first familiarize yourself with the thread that caused it, and then read it from start to finish, post by post. No skipping or skimming allowed.
Only then can you truly understand the meaning of buckeye.
Can I just throw in a perfectly gratuitous BUCKEYES BUCKEYES BUCKEYES here.
Sorry I’ll get my coat.
I first posted in that other thread because I wanted to mock some posts I found obnoxious, which made me feel better. Unfortunately it wasn’t obvious I was being ironic, a common communication breakdown with me. So I went back to respond to someone who suggested that people’s concept of physical attraction is based on the type of people and beauty standards they’re exposed to as they’re growing up. This isn’t at all true for me, as I find myself attracted more to virtually anyone other than the type of women I was around growing up.
In the real world though, I always hesitate to be open about it and never ever talk about “exotic” women. Exotic seems more appropriately applied to fish than people, particularly people you might meet at a bar or coffee shop and hit on. So for my own purposes, “exotic” applies to physical attractiveness. Anyone who looks different than me (or a female version of me) gets “bonus points” just for being different. There’s no consciousness to it though, anymore than some people like blondes over brunettes. I certainly don’t expect or desire women to *act *any differently from other women, I just instinctively like that they *look *different.
If buckeyes are exotic, my back yard is practically Katmandu.
By the way, this thread reminds me of a scene in one of Lawrence Block’s novels where Scudder is in New York interviewing a British hooker, and refers to the risk of her being deported as an undesirable alien.
She remarks with an alluring smile, “Most people consider me a very desirable alien.”
Let’s not confuse the use of the word with bad manners or a lack of social sensitivity. I would never invade some strangers personal space by asking them to explain their heritage. As I said, I deal with people from many different parts of the world. There ethnic background rarely comes up. I tend not to use ethnic terms in describing them. They are customers. I agree with you that we should make a conscious effort to not identify people primarily by ethnic background. Noticing or acknowledging their ethnic background isn’t automatically being insensitive. We’re people sharing a country and a world. IMHO describing someone as exotic is no different than saying “I find him or her attractive”
There are ways in which people acknowledge the beauty and sexual attractiveness of another person. It’s how it’s expressed and in what context that determines whether it’s appropriate or not, whether it’s dehumanizing or not. If I notice and think “Wow what great ass” that doesn’t automatically mean I don’t realize that the person is an individual with a lot of other facets.
Which is your choice. My point is that I don’t think it is dehumanizing in and off itself. You specifically said.
bolding mine
So I made an attempt to discover if it is offensive and why and it seems to me that’s it’s not offensive. Like any term that recognizes our differences concerning race and or ethnic background it is only offensive in the context of how it’s used.
I applaud your efforts at sensitivity but I think you over reacted and generalized too much. I think we have another responsibility. To discern the person behind the words and try and determine intent and be concerned about how the word is used rather than object to it’s use at all.
I gather you think it’s better not to use the term exotic at all in referring to people. That’s your choice and while I applaud your motives I respectfully disagree.
I make an effort to not mention a person’s race when talking about them as a customer or an employee because most of the time it’s not relevant to the conversation. I agree that it’s best to think of someone as a person first and race or ethnicity as a largely irrelevant descriptor. There are great people from every race and jackasses from every race. I sometimes get impatient and abrupt with customers who constantly ask for discounts on already discounted items and want to argue after I give them a polite no. Some of them probably suspect my motives are racial but I can’t help that. We had an incident recently where a customer got upset and called the another manager a racist even though nothing racial had entered the conversation. Sadly some people will associate any negative emotion or outcome with racial motivations. I try to assume the best until a person reveals their personality to me.
I’m a British born and raised Indian person who lives in LA. (like Naveen Andrews!)
Personally I find nothing exotic, cos I know a lot about other cultures, especially Asian. Once you learn about the cultures, you think OK, “that bit came from India, that bit came from China, that’s similar to Thai…” etc…
I’ve grown up around blacks, Indians, Italians, whites, everything. I never had much experience with east Asians until I started working, but in nearly every single job I’ve ever had, I work alongside Chinese women. They look just like any other women to me, I don’t exotify them.
I get exotified a lot, by other people. They are always asking me about British stuff, Indian stuff and to be honest with you, it gets boring after a while. I want people to see me as a human being, not British nor Indian.
I also somehow disappoint people by the fact that I am not white - I’ve come across many women who are crazy about British men and British culture, but the British man that they want is white. In their eyes I’m not “really British”. The people who say this to me the most are usually east-Asians.
There goes my question about Balti houses. 
objectifies SomeBodyUK So uh…how *you *doin’? 
I guess the closest I can relate to this is being asked about pizza and hotdogs when I’m in another state. Or gangsters. (I’m a Chicagoan.) I just figure everyone’s got something that makes the different than those around them, and that’s what people are curious about. When I hang out with my family, I get asked about herbalism and camping for weeks on end. When I hang out with my hippie friends, I get asked about growing up in the 'burbs. None of it’s about me as a human being, either…I think this happens regardless of your race and country of origin, just because people are curious apes.
And, yes, sometimes I’d rather talk about something else instead of answering yet another question about composting toilets. I just try to remember it’s *that *person’s first time asking, and give them an answer as good as the first time I was asked it when I was really excited about talking about it.
I agree with this, more or less. “It’s only offensive in the context of how it’s used”. Sometimes people have been on the receiving end of so much exoticisation that they don’t want to hear another word about it. Think of your wow, nice ass!" example, imagine if that woman couldn’t have a conversation with anyone with out the subject of her nice ass coming up implicitly or explicitly. Sometimes context is all-encompassing.
This provides a good example of what I’m talking about. I’m assuming that people are asking you these questions after they learn you are from Chicago or know something about composting toilets? In other words, people aren’t just going to look at you and assume you know about pizza and hotdogs or gangsters and composting toilets; they have to know something about you first. Even then it can become annoying. For people with “exotic looks” their very appearance prompts questions.
Good point.
Wow, I didn’t want to read all 11 pages of the pit thread, but just reading the opening salvos in the original thread (and no more than that) I would say that it was perfectly reasonable for Opal to prefer not to call peanutbutter balls buckeyes. I could imagine things went downhill from there with Opal being unreasonable and so on (11 pages!), but I don’t fault her for having an initial “ew!” reaction.
Maybe it’s different in France. There’s less of an expectation of being nationalist and proud of the country you’re living in (France, I mean), and on the other hand, people are expected to just integrate and be French, and forget about their “heritage”. Nobody says such things as “I’m 1/4 this and 3/4 that” for instance.
So, it might be that people feel more free not to claim their attachment to France and at the same time have less chances to talk about whatever place they’re coming from hence are more willing to discuss it. Maybe. In any case, it doesn’t seem to me they’re offended.
I understand that. I wasn’t suggesting people start a conversation with “Hey You’re exotic looking” Niether would I remark about someone’s nice ass to them in passing. One of our employees is a lovely young lady from Iraq. She observes Muslim tradition and always wears a head cover. I never mentioned until until we had established a friendly joking working relationship. Only after I thought we were on a friendly basis did I ask where she was from. The same goes for exotic. I would have to get to know someone and like them on a personal basis before I would make those kinds of comments to them.
I can see where this would be a problem sometimes. It wouldn’t occur to me question a virtual stranger based on their appearence but I know lots of people take that liberty.
Things didn’t so much “go downhill” as go sideways, and a lot of SDMB talent showed up to write hilarious posts. It’s not a thread for the faint of heart, and 11 pages is awfully long. But the thread is a classic. I’m very glad I was there as it unfolded because it kept me laughing for days.
I hesitate to try to condense the meaning that “buckeye” has taken on as a result of that thread, but “take your self-righteous oversensitivity elsewhere, I’m not buying it” is as close as I can come.
Wait, is this the thing about the seed pod that freaks Opal out or something?
That’s fair, but many people who don’t experience the badgering first-hand need someone to explain to them why such behavior is offensive. I know I did. Yep, I used to be that guy. That’s the connection I’m making: it’s possible to use offensive language without intending any ill will, just like it’s possible to commit a faux pas in a foreign country without intending to offend anyone.
I get the feeling that you’re on the defensive because you think I’m impugning your character. I can assure you that I’m not. If it helps, I’ve excoriated no sin here that I haven’t first committed, myself.
I can agree with that.
You have a right to your opinion. I disagree. I’d rather not run in circles about it at this point, personally. The whole race thing has been burning me out lately.
Interesting. Of course, here, most of the people I’m talking about claim the U.S. as their country because they were born in the U.S., so “whatever place they’re coming from” may be less than an hour’s drive away.
Hostile Dialect,
Hostile Dialect, Narcissist
Ah heck, just remembered something important… if anyone really does go back and read the whole buckeye thread, you should be aware before you start that Autolycus posted some gruesome links and got chided for not properly warning people how gross they were. So consider yourself warned - my advice is to read the thread to the end without looking at them.
No need to run in circles. We can respectfully disagree.
I’ll mention one other thing. The thread was about what people think rather than the social implications of saying it to others although there’s no problem in discussing that aspect of it. I was taken aback by the implications of stereotype or racial offense. Just to nitpick the use of language a bit, if you had warned that some people might see the term as offensive I’d see it differently. Your assertion that I had said something offensive and had some responsibility to educate myself about that fact led me to believe it was widely understood that exotic was an offensive term. I don’t believe that’s accurate. Regardless of that minor detail I support your efforts to focus on the person rather than the superficial differences.
Thanks for the conciliatory words. I accept your proposal.
Hostile Dialect,
Hostile Dialect, Narcissist