Not assuming anything or turning anything. Just talking about what’s actually been brought up in the thread, as opposed to not mentioned.
Oh, I get better than “filthy slut.” I don’t even have to ask. And it doesn’t have to be during sex. Matter of fact, it never is. And it usually isn’t even a woman!
You’ve given me a lot to think about.
As Isaac Asimov said, in The Sensuous Dirty Old Man:
“Sex IS dirty - if you do it right!”
Well, I didn’t expect this thread to go quite like this - but it’s certainly given me more food for thought about my original question.
First of all, let me clear one thing up. Don’t know if this is a transatlantic language thing, but when I say I’m a “girl”, I mean I’m female. I’m also 45 years old. So in my OP there is no implication about girls = teens.
As has been pointed out, this whole thing started by a group of friends discussing “dirty”. If the word “naughty” works better for folks, think of it like that. Trust me, in the original conversation, there was no negativity about the word “dirty”. Hence the phrase Dirty In A Good Way.
I like the definition that it’s about women (or men) heartily enjoying sex, and not being ashamed of doing so, which has come up a few times in this thread. And oh yes, men can be “dirty” (or naughty) too.
I also loved the thumb-sucking analogy. Brilliant.
Apologies if anyone misinterpreted (or was offended by) my original question. I lurked around here for years before posting.
Exactly Omni. Leave it to the dope to take a potentially hilarious thread and grinding it down into something offensive.
But that’s just it. When people joke about something like this, it’s because there is the stereotype of most women not liking sex. I mean, I just don’t see why, “We were joking/kidding around among friends” means anything. You can still say incredibly stupid or wrong things.
I’m reminded of the play I saw this afternoon–Mamet’s “Race,” which centers around a character who may or may not be a rapist, but who definitely is a racist who’s trying to defend some disparaging remarks he made years ago by saying, “We were joking among friends, it was totally innocent.” I think that a lot of the things that we say in jest can say a lot about us as people and about the society we live in.
The definition works, but for my money I wouldn’t use “dirty” to describe anyone unless they were into things outside of the vanilla. I’ve known plenty of ladies who were voracious in the sack and as eager as all get out, but I wouldn’t use the term dirty. Fun of course, but calling them dirty would have an implication that I didn’t intend.
Dirty requires something extra. They have to love sex, but they have to love breaking a couple taboos along the way. Really it boils down to how you define vanilla sex. Personally I wouldn’t call a girl who swallowed dirty, she’s just doing it right. If she gives me a rim job…and asks for one in return, ding ding ding…dirty.
And for the record, her enthusiasm on the subject is critical. A girl who could be talked into anal sex, not particularly dirty. A girl who begs for it and has a favorite position is.
Are you seriously telling me what I’m thinking? Guess what, I’m not subjugating and debasing a woman secretly in my head when I call her dirty. Get over yourself. If anyone is propagating a stereotype it’s you knee-jerks who think the poor little ladies need to be defended. I’m sure all the scolding about liberal, judgment free sex talk will go a long ways towards equalizing the sexual divide. :rolleyes:
There’s a huge difference between women not enjoying sex and women not being comfortable trying and enjoying pleasurable things that you and other women like you are comfortable enjoying. It seems like Scougs’ could just as easily have been, ‘what are some naughty things only women who are really comfortable with sex enjoy?’, and you seem to be denying that it’s ok for those things to exist.
How do you know Scottish women in their 40s aren’t likely to be too inhibited to try things you enjoy? Maybe swallowing and anal are a big deal for 40 year old Scottish women. It seems pretty obnoxious to assume that all women are either open to any pleasurable sexual act or hate sex.
Now I would prefer all women be as uninhibited as possible about trying new fun things and I can see how labeling them as dirty would have a chilling effect on their willingness to try them. But you seem to be going too far, suggesting we can’t even point out that they’re extant.
Do you really not know any women who enjoy sex but have self imposed limits on what they’re willing to try because they consider it dirty? In my experience, college students love sex but a lot don’t want to try anal because they’re young and consider it dirty. Add a few years experience and they’re much more likely to realize it’s good and not at all dirty. A 20 year old college student who enjoys anal is more likely to be considered “dirty in a good way” than a 30 year old who’s just average.
I guess the question is, if you are just as eager would you then be labeled dirty?
I like the terms ‘dirty’ and ‘naughty’ used in jest (or half-jest), especially in the bedroom (you know, ‘Ooh, you’re dirty! Whee!’). Used to talk about a woman (or man)? I guess all it really means is ‘She’s less vanilla than I am.’
Has anyone really said that “dirty” doesn’t / can’t also apply to men, though? (Personally, I think that men who are “dirty in that good way” are also pretty hot. Even better when they’re devious and creative.)
I have given a whole lot of thought to the ideas of sex and filth and sin; I grew up in a very sexually repressive culture, and ultimately have had to spend years of shedding those externally imposed codes of propriety in order to get to a healthier, more balanced, and more-natural-for-me state of being. Ultimately I like the fact that I have gotten to a point where I can choose to be a “dirty girl” (a term which doesn’t offend me, btw), if I want to.
My natural inclinations lie a bit outside of mainstream expectations; it took me a few years to come to terms with that. What guilt I felt wasn’t mine; it was shoved on me and inculturated into me when I was growing up. The reason the “dirty girl” thing has such an appeal (to me, anyway) is because it turns those taboos on their head. I know it’s not wrong for me to like it, but I have to say I enjoy essentially thumbing my nose at those who would tell me that it is.
It’s “dirty” because it transgresses those who were oppressing me. It’s also awesome because it does.
–Kaio, happily virgin and whore by turns as the whim strikes.
No. Someone did start a thread about whether or not certain practices make a girl dirty in a good way, though, and that’s what I’ve been talking about – that thing that happened. I’m not really prepared to enter into a debate about the things that haven’t happened.
All I have been saying is that when somebody sees that Lily Allen has a certain look, and/or talks a certain way, and makes the comment that she’s probably dirty, pure filth, that she’d get it because she’s probably a freakazoid, well, it’s a pretty short trip backward from that observation to some pretty hateful perspectives. Because how can you tell from looking at Lily Allen what kind of sex she enjoys? What’s the nexus there between the observation and the inference, and on top of that, why are those specific tendencies in the sack associated with this specific “type” of woman? And being an American male who didn’t grow up under a rock, I have an answer to the question. It seems obvious to me - she looks like/sounds like a slut, is the message there. Because she’s probably a slut, she’s probably a phenomenal lay, but she’s also being judged in a normative, almost moral way. And that specifically is what I think is worth prying into.
That isn’t the same thing as the question whether it’s appropriate to want a man or a woman to fuck one’s brains out with gusto – no problem there – and I don’t know why those two questions keep getting conflated. Once more - it’s not about the guy’s feelings toward the dirtiness, it’s about the fact that he calls it “dirty.” I feel pretty comfortable saying that everybody in this thread gets that “dirty” as applied to a really foxy chick’s hypothetical bedroom demeanor is a compliment per se. That’s not the point - the point is that there’s a special subset of sexual practices that fall under a special rubric, and that that rubric is called things like dirty, and filthy, and so on. And I don’t see the same kind of thing happening with respect to “dirty” men, where there’s a powerful linguistic trend toward associating sexual power with the god-damned stuff that pigs wallow around in. If it does I promise I’ll be ready to confront it.
On preview, I see that a lot of my frustration seems to be coming out directly at you, Kaio. I hope you’ll take me at my word that that isn’t the case, and that I’m not really responding at you.
No, I think I understand what you’re getting at, here (and that it isn’t me 
).
I see calling it “dirty” akin to the “taking it back and making it toothless” phenomenon surrounding words and especially sexual practices that used to be considered deviant (in the bad way). For example, there was a time not all that long ago where the word “queer” and even “gay” or “homosexual” (“queen”, “twink” etc.) were incredibly pejorative words. There was no one who said them without meaning them to be an insult. Their dictionary definition was as an insult. Then a bunch of gays, queers, queens, and twinks got fed up with being marginalized, and started calling themselves those words. The took the power from those who would insult them and put it in their own hands. Over time, those words lost their power. At first only queers could call each other queer; but by now, unless your tone made it clear you intended to insult me, I wouldn’t think much of it if you called me queer. I call myself queer; it’s an accurate, if somewhat vague, adjective to describe me.
So nowadays being queer/gay/a queen/a twink causes much less shock and dismay than it did 20 years ago. The language shift wasn’t the only part of this, but I feel that it did contribute in its own small way.
Similarly, if I speak of dirty/naughty sex, I am taking back that word, stripping the pejorative off, and throwing that pejorative connotation back in the faces of those who would insult me for liking non-vanilla sex. Figuratively speaking. I expect this language shift will follow along similar lines as “queer” – eventually nearly everyone will understand that “dirty” sex is just a type of sex, and there’s no judgment or pejorative associated with it. Which will be kind of funny, in the same way that the shift in meaning for “queer” is, simply because of where the meaning of the word started.
Dirty = bad? Not anymore.
It’s about context, I agree.
And in an effort to try and get this thread on-track (remind me to add it to the “Things That You Only See On The SDMB” thread), I’d say that a woman who is “Dirty in a good way” really enjoys sex, with an interest in the kinky or at least “unladylike”, with an element of “wantonness” there as well.
It’s not enough that she likes anal or bareback or riding crops- there needs to be something extra to spice it up a bit and generally make it far more “exciting” or “interesting” than you’d expect. And she really has to be enjoying it/getting off on it as well.
So, a woman who wants to screw in the back of a taxi on the way home from a party? That’s (depending on your thing) hot and a freaky, but not quite “dirty in a good way”.
But a woman who breaks out the riding crops and the toys in the bedroom at the party and then says she wants to invite someone else to join in as well? That’s “Dirty in a good way”, IMHO.
(Bolding added).
I read that as “in their basement”, which worked perfectly.
I read that as in their basement as well. I was gonna add more but I don’t feel like wading into this morass so I’ll sit this one out.
I picked other because I don’t think it was any of the above choices, but I can’t identify what the reasons are, either.
I don’t think of people (men or women) who enjoy sex as “dirty”, I think of them as fun. Someone who truly enjoys sex can make up for a lack of skill with enthusiam, but someone who doesn’t like sex can not make up for lack of enthusiam with skill.
Swallowing isn’t dirty.
I mean, strictly speaking it’s cleaner than the alternatives. At least in terms of stains.
There’s obviously nothing wrong about women enjoying sex, but to be “good dirty” the woman can’t ruthlessly “compartmentalize” sex.
Sex has to be boxed in to some extent-- you don’t want STDs, constant pregnancy, and broken marriages. But the default position should be, let sexual desire define the limits, not the cerebrum.
As others have mentioned, the terminology varies culture to culture… Robert Heinlein loved the word “nasty” and a character would call his wife his “nasty gal.” That I didn’t care for at all, it seemed quaint and cackling. So if “dirty” and “girl” bother some people, I can understand it. I’m okay with them, tho.
And along those lines, I also know a number of people who call themselves “deviant,” but in no way mean it negatively. Same with “kinky.” They used to be pejorative words; and while I don’t think either one has gotten all the way to the “completely non-pejorative” end of the scale, from what I’ve seen they’re on their way there.
It seems that “dirty” hasn’t quite gotten all the way there, either, but I do think it’s farther along than the other two.
(FWIW, I’m hoping to see this happen with the concept of “dirty words” too. It’s just ridiculous to me that we create words in our language, and then tell everyone not to use them, because it’s “bad.” Huh?)