What you’re mostly making clear is that, regardless of whether or not he’s a bad guy, you definitely consider him the bad guy here. I mean, do you hear the stuff you keep saying about this guy? The only remotely good quality you’ve deigned to acknowledge about him is that he’s got a better sense of direction than you. Other than that, it’s a constant litany of ways that he’s inadequate, incompetent, and generally just not nearly as good as you–he’s not smart, he doesn’t think, it would be just awful if he were the only parent in the picture. And the examples you give to show how inadequate he is are piddly-ass shit like him thinking spanking is an okay method of discipline, and that he once let her watch part of a violent movie. It’s the same sort of tempest in a teapot horseshit as you pitching fits about her hair and clothes, which says to me that things haven’t changed nearly so much as you like to tell yourself they have.
And if strangers who are getting purely your side of the story are getting the “same shit, different day” vibe, how do you think this situation looks to him?
Well, it looks like the OP really is that self-absorbed.
Make your daughter call her dad already. I would love it if my parents would pick up the phone more often and give me a wring. Sadly, my dad has cancer and my mom provides his care, so when I feel like chatting I call them instead.
Your Ex has epilepsy and is caring for his wife who has MS - teach your daughter that sometimes she needs to initiate contact with those she wants to talk to, 'cus even is she’s their daughter, they may have other things distracting them.
And frankly, if you communicated any of your own bitterness to her, or suggest that her dad should be calling her and he’s a bad person for not, or any of the other crap you’ve spewed in this thread - well - if you do any of those things you’re a bad mother, and more importantly, a bad person.
Oh jesus. IS this a joke? Because I, too, have been reading for a while, but this just set it over the top. :mad:
Let me get this straight. For years, you treated him like a stupid, unfit, inept, bothersome, cretinous sperm donor. He loved you and kissed your ass, you considered yourself above him and treated him like shit, and you were happy.
Suddenly, he’s moved on with his life, to the point of getting married. You want the attention back, and you’re willing to use your daughter to get it. And you want to make damn sure it’s on your terms, because even though you’re not above using a child to get back into the limelight, you don’t want her “influenced” by the sperm donor.
OK, well whatever. I guess we’ll help your efforts. First, yes. You make the call, and your daughter should talk to him. You say it’s “his responsibility, not hers.” WHO THE FUCK CARES WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IT IS? Someone has to be the adult here; if it has to be the 10 year old, then that’s what we’ll work with.
Second, you have no right to judge his parenting, even though you may not agree with it. Your daughter is old enough to realize that her mother and her father will not parent the same, nor will they necessarily have the same values and ideals. Kids get that quick; my parents were polar opposites, as were their families. No big deal–in fact, better! I learned to deal with more than one kind of person. It has served me well. She’s old enough to speak up if something makes her uncomfortable while she’s at his house. Don’t want to watch Halloween #234 on DVD? That’s ok–we made her the adult in the paragraph above, remember? She can say so; from everything you’ve said about your ex, he doesn’t really strike me as the “You’re doing to watch what I damn well say” type.
Let me sum it up this way: you are now removed from the situation. What you feel, want, think, need, and believe no longer matters. You’ve had your turn. Your role regarding this situation must now be mute facilitator. You exist to get her to her dad’s. You’re not second-fiddle. You aren’t even third. You are not in the hoedown at all.
Last, I think that if you haven’t already, you should come clean with your daughter (as well as apologizing to your ex) about YOUR behavior and culpability in this situation. Otherwise, she’ll likely end up thinking it was something that *she *did wrong.
Blackberry I’m a bit amazed you’re still here - some of these posts are no doubt uncomfortable for you to read. I do hope, though, that you are able to get something positive from this thread.
And now I may be making you uncomfortable some more…
I forget where exactly you talked about your parents’ divorce and your absent father so I may have some details wrong, but bear with me. I offer the following strictly as food for thought because, as I have emphasized, I don’t know the full situation here.
That said…
You grew up, at least part of your childhood, without a father. I’m wondering if that had a few long-term effects on you that are now spilling over to your child. First, lacking a father, you may not have a really good idea of what a good father is, or how a good father acts. This is not your fault. It might be your parents’ fault, but since I have no idea why they divorced it may not have been the worst alternative. In any case, that’s water under the bridge. You have to deal with NOW. Your internal standard of “good father” may be seriously askew without your realizing it.
Second, I have to wonder if you resent your father for not doing more to prove his love to you. I have to wonder if this has resulted in you unintentionally throwing obstacles in the path of your daughter’s father (and make no mistake, you HAVE created some obstacles) in the hope that he would overcome them and thereby “prove” his love to his daughter as you wanted your father to do for you… but he never did. This is completely unfair to both your daughter and your ex. They should not have to suffer for your own father’s mistakes.
Third, your ex did not grow up with a father, either. HE may not have a very good internal image of a “good father” either! Yet you say that he is a better father than either his grandfather or his father. Given that you have high standards for fatherhood (perhaps even unreasonably so) I’ll take your word on that. HE has overcome some of the burden of his past now it’s time for you to do the same.
You need to seriously consider all of the above and whether or not any or all of it applies to you. You can’t change a bad trait until you know it’s there and you own up to it. That’s painful as hell sometimes, but necessary.
Yes, I really think your daughter should call him. She’s old enough to take on that responsibility. Being a daughter is not an entirely passive relationship. Just as her father has obligations towards her, she has obligations towards him. Again, given your relationship with your own father this may not be apparent to you. Well, my father was present all my childhood. At a certain point I learned that the relationship was a two-way street.
(So is the mother-daughter relationship - think about it a bit. I’ve been thinking about it for the past year and a half. Sitting by my mother’s deathbed, holding her hand as she breathed her last after I had moved in with her and dad and spent 2-3 months caring for her, mom being helpless as a baby by that point, taught me an awful lot not only about my responsibilities towards her at the end of life, but also what I had and hadn’t done for her over the past 40 years. It also taught me, again, about being a daughter to my father, about my obligations to him as well as his to mine. At its healthiest, a parent-child relationship is indeed two-way and mutually supporting. This is difficult for anyone to truly grasp until a lot of life has passed, even under the best of circumstances.)
Hon, when “everyone” is saying you’re doing something, there’s a pretty good chance you’re doing it, even if you think you aren’t. I’m still wondering if you have a need for people to prove they care about you. I’ve encountered that before in people who grew up with a missing parent. If you’re one of them, well, you have lots of company.
Mama gave me some good advice when I got married (that was 20 years ago, now). She said a good marriage is where each partner gives 80% to the relationship and only takes 20%. It didn’t seem fair to me at the time, but mom was right (she usually was). And it’s true to some extent of a lot of relationships. A lot of the time you feel like you’re putting more into than the other person. Sometimes that’s even true. But if you do that, then when you truly need help, we’ll if those people are decent and really care, all of a sudden they’ll be doing the giving and you’ll be taken care of.
Relationships never split effort 50/50 down the middle. Some days you give more, some days they give more.
Yes, she’s picking up on your actions.
That’s why it’s very, very important that you be aware of your actions, your tone of voice, your body language - kids pick up on the tinest cues. You must keep all of that consistently on the same message, or as much as possible.
His house his rules. Your house your rules. Remember that.
If daughter and father are under your roof then yes, your rules and no spanking (as an example). You can certainly express your opinion that spanking in unnecessary/harmful/bad/whatever you believe, BUT - his house his rules. If he thinks a swat on the butt is appropriate in a given circumstance there isn’t, as a practical matter, anything you can do about it. Especially if he’s not leaving bruises or marks. I don’t agree with it either, but it’s not the end of the world and, personally, I think there are a lot worse things a parent can do.
You, of course, disagree with his position and you might also disagree with mine.
His house his rules. Your house your rules. That’s how you draw the line.
OK, arguing with someone to force them to change their minds is NOT being fair - it’s being coercive. I don’t think it’s a matter of him not being interested, I think it’s a matter of him disagreeing with you but not wanting to fight endless battles.
You seem to think you succeed ONLY when he changes his opinion to match yours. Your ex is not you. He obviously disagrees with you on many things (which probably has a lot to do with being your ex, right?)
His house his rules. Your house your rules. You can say “I don’t like daughter watching violent movies” but you can NOT tell him what to watch or not watch in his house. Provided that whatever he is doing is legal it’s his house his rules. Anything else IS unreasonable!
This is why my parents have gone out on my back porch to smoke for the past 30 years. My house MY rules. I don’t ask them to quit smoking, and I don’t say jack about their vile addiction in their home or their car - their house THEIR rules - but they don’t smoke in my house. Wether they go to the back porch or their car or the bar next door to smoke is their choice, but they don’t smoke in my house. Hell, when mom died I actually went out and bought a carton of cigarrettes for dad, as I didn’t want him on the road in that state and it was NOT the day to ask him to quit - HIS house HIS rules. Get it?
I don’t think you’re all in the wrong, I do think you’re contributing more to the problems than you realize. It sucks to realize you aren’t quite the good guy you think you are, but once in awhile we all need to do that.
Someone made a recommendation for counseling. Do consider it. There’s nothing wrong with asking for help in parenting. A counselor would be an impartial third party you can bounce ideas off of who won’t attack you and may well help you deal with your own issues and raising your daughter better. There are counselors who specialize in families of divorce or separation, which yours would be even if you and your ex were never formally married. Sort of like this thread, only with fewer insults and much more real advice. One of our posters mentioned do thing herself, perhaps you should PM her and ask how to select a counselor if you choose to consider the idea.
You don’t HAVE TO do this… it is merely a suggestion. Some people find it extremely useful. Some do not. It’s a decision you have to make.
No, you can’t stop him - but you CAN make it more difficult than it needs to be. You can do that even without realizing you’re doing it.
I don’t think it’s reasonable. On the other hand, by the time I was six I had lived in three different states so I’ll freely admit my own childhood experiences may have left be biased as well. I hate moving, but I will certainly do it if there’s a benefit in doing so.
You’re not “uprooting” your family to “follow him around” - you’re moving ANYWAY and for your daughter’s sake you should consider moving closer to her dad. Maybe mid-way between your family and his family, for example. It’s not a mandate, but when you move it’s something you should consider every time until she moves out of the house, and you should consider it for HER sake - not your sake, not her father’s sake, HER sake.
Probably better if you don’t ask anyhow - be polite, but respect their privacy.
I don’t think this can be emphasised enough - Dad will do what dad will do, his house his rules.
And I don’t get why Blackberry thinks she’s so important that others have to call her if they wanna chat. THis is an attitude that has been passed to daughter.
If daughter wants to talk, just pick up the phone, there is no “score keeping” or “its his responsibility”. I think its more of “I like to chat, I’ll pick up the phone”
And coming from a family that doesn’t do well at staying in touch, I can assure that its not from lack of wanting to talk to each other, sometimes things just get a little pushed, other shit comes up, things “distract us” - its not a measure of love and care or otherwise.
I’m kind of mystified by a lot of the responses here. This one especially.
What evidence do we have the OP has high standards for fatherhood? She’s mad that the guy doesn’t come by to see their kid or put in more than a dutiful call once or twice year. I’m not getting the sense that all of this is because he isn’t buying the kid ponies or knocking door the down to come visit everyday. That to me would be unreasonable. Phoning in fatherhood, not so much.
The OP has a legitimate beef. The father of her child has essentially abandoned their daughter. Did the OP contribute to the mess that helped may this happen? Of course. They wouldn’t have gotten divorced if they respected each other. She freely admitted her part in this. Is her previous habit of nagging an excuse for the guy to fade away aside from a few perfunctory phone conversations around the holidays? No. Having a bitchy ex-spouse is not a legitimate excuse to abandon your kids, sorry. An ex is not interchangable with one’s kids, either.
I guess I’m very a lucky person to be able to say that my dad was a active parent to me and my siblings. He wasn’t perfect, but there was no doubt that he was responsible for my upbringing and he did a good job. My parents are still married, but even if they weren’t and my mom was a harpy psycho hose-beast who breathed fire down his back every time he was around, I’m certain he’d find a way to still be there for his kids. Even it meant making a nuisance of himself. I think that is the bare minimum of what a father should do, and I’d be mad if he used my mother’s attitude as an excuse to stay away from me, his own flesh and blood.
None of this has anything to do with the what the OP should do now, of course. But I’m struck by how many so people are giving this guy a pass and actually acting like because he made an effort to be a decent dad several years ago that this counts as doing his part, now the OP has to step up. Of course, the OP should “step up” but not because she owes it to him. She should “step up” because her ex isn’t doing it now and she wants her daughter to have a father. That’s the only reason.
If this were a mother who was only calling twice a year and never visited her kids, would you be so quick to excuse this behavior? Just wondering.
A 10 year-old is old enough to know when someone is just going through the motions and they’re also smart enough to know that when someone really loves you, they just don’t go through the motions. If you have a kid and you never see them or even apologize for not seeing them, that is a big indication of indifference.
Me too. **Blackberry **contributed to this problem, and it’s important that she doesn’t give up trying to foster a relationship between her ex and their daughter for her sake, but from some of these posts you’d think the ex was some sort of saint because he tried for a few years. It’s just as much his responsibility to keep the relationship going as it is Blackberry’s not to harm it. If he were to post here, telling us that he hadn’t had much contact with his child for years because his ex made his life difficult five years ago, I don’t think he’d find that much sympathy.
I don’t hold the ex blameless by any means. Yes, it sure would be nice if he had stepped up to the plate and continued to do so, despite a fairly hostile atmosphere etc. But the reality is he didn’t. Do we deal with what she can change or just bitch/throw a pity party about what she can’t?
But he is not a deadbeat dad. He is an absent one (at present). The OP states that she was controlling and immature etc. This is all to the good–awareness is a first step to change. But IMO she is making this much more difficult than it really is (probably due to her background, but IANAD/Therapist etc). Daughter needs a relationship with dad. Dad is not instigating, so mom must. I think mom needs to contact dad and advocate for daughter re increasing contact/calls with dad. And she needs to foster their relationship more than she is right now.
The OP is not a bad person or a bad mother. She is someone struggling to do what she sees is best for her kid. She’s been big enough to admit to some of her flaws here and she’s gotten some harsh criticism (myself included). I also think she’s in need of some counseling. It can only help. And perhaps daughter would benefit too.
I hope my post didn’t come off as saying people should hold a pity party for Blackberry, or bash her ex, but some people seem to be holding a pity party on the ex’s behalf.
I think there’s a lot of good advice in this thread, but there are so many posts jumping to the strangest conclusions that frankly, I’m surprised the OP didn’t abandon it long ago. I’d commend her for reaching out for advice, in the first place, and being willing to take it.
I don’t think that, really it’s more that I don’t want to disturb people if they’re busy or don’t feel like talking (not saying that makes sense, just saying that’s my issue there).
Thank you! I was beginning to wonder if I had completely lost my mind or if I was communicating this WAY wrong or what, but you seem to have understood what I was trying to get across about the situation.
And thank you. Yes, I am SURE that if he had come here and said his side, some of his biggest fans here would be attacking him. I’m more than willing to listen to advice about things I’ve done wrong and should do differently, but there’s constructive criticism and then there’s just attacking for sport. That’s just something you have to expect on message boards though, and I’m just trying to take the good advice and disregard the bad.
This is pretty much what I had been thinking, but that’s why I’m asking how I’m supposed to know when to give up and accept the situation for what it is. It’s not like he’ll ever SAY that no, he’s not going to start being more involved. When I ask him, he always says he’ll start, but then he doesn’t.
The comments about my daughter being selfish or bitter or whatever are very strange to me and I don’t know where you guys could have possibly gotten that from anything I said. Yeah, she doesn’t want to KEEP calling her dad who has had almost nothing to do with her since she was 5…what the hell is her problem? I’m sure it couldn’t be that she feels rejected and hesitant to try to force her dad to talk to her when she gets so little reciprocation.
Funny how it’s apparently more acceptable for the parent to not call the child than vice versa. HE has valid reasons left and right for ignoring her for half her life, but she should really get her act together and stop being so selfish like some kind of elementary school child or something.
Yeah, the more I’ve thought about this, I agree, I don’t think I should force her to call him. I think I should just keep encouraging her every so often, but let her decide. I did just give him her email address today, so hopefully he’ll email her and they can at least keep in touch that way. She’ll probably feel more comfortable initiating emails than phone calls anyway.
I texted him today so it had to be brief, but I tried to say those things and told him she needs and wants to hear from him. He just said okay.
I don’t know, sometimes I just happen to remember trivial things. I remember what I ordered the first time I went out with him, too.
I have gotten some good advice and used it, and if I wanted someone to get sympathy here it would be my daughter. The only hard thing about this for me is feeling guilty and seeing my daughter being hurt. At some points in the past it used to be hard for me not getting breaks since he wasn’t doing his part, but that’s not much of an issue now, so I don’t know what I would even be wanting sympathy for.
The only things I do like the throw myself the occasional pity party over, I haven’t even mentioned because they have nothing to do with this.
I’m white, but you’ll be relieved to know that I’m not denying her any link to a community.
Count me in the camp of forget about the past and the blame and he did/she did. Act like a grown-up and move on. So I hope this doesn’t seem like nit-picking but…
I know it’s the “modern age” and all that blah, blah, blah, but texting something of this weight and importance trivializes it, if you ask me. I think you missed an opportunity for some meaningful communication. A text can not convey your sincerity and commitment, it’s just letters on a tiny screen. Tiny screen = tiny message. YMMV.
I think the next thing to do is call him** very soon** and try to make some time this weekend to get them together. If not this weekend, next. If not next, the one after. Let him know you’re serious. Not pushy, just serious.
It’s worth applying the rule here that if you’re hearing one side of the story, it’s probably heavily biased. Blackberry’s ex is, in all likelihood, making more of an effort than Blackberry admits, and has been subjected to more barriers and bullshit than Blackberry is admitting to. If we heard HIS sideof the story it’d be wildly tilted in his direction. The truth would lie in the middle.
Have you ever noticed how everyone on the SDMB (or any other message board) is surrounded by assholes IRL, but none of the SDMB’s posters are, themselves, assholes? Hell of a statistical unlikelihood, ain’t it? That’s because nobody thinks they’re an asshole. Denis Leary’s song aside, assholes generally think they’re the ones in the right and that everyone else is stupid/asshole/useless/etc.
When you hear stories about this sort of things, it’s often useful to think; how would this story sound if an asshole were telling it? Sometimes you’ll then find yourself thinking, “Hey… this IS the way an asshole would tell their side of the story. I may in fact be reading the asshole’s account of things here.”
Is Blackberry an asshole? No, I’m not saying that, and this isn’t the Pit anyway, but she seems very blind to her own part in this. And since it’s HER part she can control, why bother talking about her ex?
Not to say I don’t have any “daddy issues”, but my dad was always a presence in my life. He wasn’t there for the day-to-day things, and I think he should have made more of an effort in that regard such as not moving ~1000 miles away when he had no pressing reason to, but I always heard from him regularly and saw him more often than my daughter’s father sees her, even with the distance.
I also have a stepdad who has been around since I was 6 or 7, and he’s like a dad to me.
Sure, if he was involved, it would be her responsibility to keep up her side of it, but I just don’t think it’s fair or realistic to expect a child to initiate or lead a relationship.
I don’t think it’s the end of the world under all circumstances either, but when he started doing it, that was right when he was getting less consistent with seeing her, so for him to step in after not seeing her for a few months or so and things are strained anyway, and then spank her when she’s not even used to being spanked, I did have a big problem with that, because it was VERY hurtful to her and I don’t think he understood that.
There have been times I’ve known him to be quite sensitive to her feelings though. But it’s been a long time.
No, it really is that he isn’t interested in putting thought into things like that. It’s not that he doesn’t care, he just doesn’t think it’s necessary. (Of course, me trying to make him to do things my way didn’t HELP matters.)
I think it would be a good thing to consider, but unfortunately that’s just not an option. Well, I should say, I think GOOD counseling could certainly help, but I don’t have THAT option. I could probably try the county health department or something, but in my experience with that, they are not the good ones. I think a LOT of counselors aren’t that great. If I had the money to go to a good one, I’d do it, but I don’t see much benefit in mediocre counseling (I have tried it before, and yeah I talked about this situation with them).
I believe it would be wrong for me to move her away from him (well, if he was making an effort to be involved). I think parents (both parents) should always try to keep the kids near the non-custodial parent whenever possible. But he’s the one who moved, he didn’t see her BEFORE he moved anyway, and we have a lot of reasons to stay where we are. All those things considered, it would be a bad decision to follow him.
If, for example, he’d had a reason he needed to move and it was when he was seeing her all the time and he asked me to move to that area too so they could keep their close relationship, well then that would be entirely different and I’d have to give it some serious consideration.
That’s not true at all. I have said pretty much exactly how much involvement he’s tried to have, and that’s a matter of fact and not a subjective opinion. I’m not lying, so if I’m wrong about anything, it’s someone’s true feelings or motivations or something, but not how many times he’s attempted to contact us or how many times I’ve tried to get him to.
And god, if I was trying to make him look worse and myself look better, I’d be doing a much better job of it. Seriously.
I don’t think I’m surrounded by assholes either though. Lucky me.
Yeah, pretty much. When people hear a story that basically goes “OMG, what an asshole! Yeah, I used to be a pretty major asshole myself, but that is totally irrelevant here–this whole situation is completely that asshole’s fault,” you can’t really fault them for being a little “oh, obviously it can’t have anything to do with you. :dubious:”
Nobody is saying that the ex has behaved well–to steal shamelessly from Chris Rock, we’re not saying it’s right, we’re saying we understand. There’s a not particularly subtle and vitally important difference between the two.
You may have to enable him to say yes and make it easy for him. And I think that’s what people are saying. You might need to pick up the phone. Press him for a date. Follow up and confirm. Drop her off. Pick her up. Should you have to do these things? - maybe not. But it sounds like you want it, so accept him for what he is and do your best to facilitate the relationship.
Your daughter is getting to the age where she really isn’t going to want the relationship for much longer. The “half time” kids around here started disappearing around ten or twelve and don’t spend nearly as much time with Dad - they really get their own lives fast.
The trick is to walk the line that at the end of this the worst case is people (especially your daughter) saying “well, you can’t say Blackberry didn’t try…”
I’m not going to go back through and gather snippets of posts, but there has been a lot of “OMG, you’re saying he’s not smart, how horrible!” when it is possible to realize that he has a flaw, without being a terrible person, or people going on and on about how **Blackberry **is the cause of all of this, and shouting her down when she says they both made mistakes. Which they clearly did. I know this because **Blackberry **is here, concerned because he’s sort of checked out of an active role, here.
It’s almost like I’ve read a different OP than a lot of you. I read a post where someone acknowledged that they’d been difficult for no good reason, that it has played a part in where they are today, and shared some nice traits about the other party, and asked for advice about how to rectify a situation that she helped cause. Her retelling will be slanted toward her, but when someone someone is attempting to be fair, to the point of giving examples of their mistakes, and praising the other person, that doesn’t sound like someone who’s blind to their role in it at all. Just the opposite.
I for one don’t understand him. Because I don’t even know him. And I’m not gonna even pretend that I know the whole background between him and the OP, based on what she’s written here. It’s highly likely that he’s been an absent dad simply because that is what he wants to be. Just like all the other half-assed parents out there in America with ex-spouses who don’t nag but still find themselves doing it alone.
A father who wants to actually father will find a way to father. If I were going to blame the OP for anything, it would be for creating a child with someone who doesn’t have the same standards for fatherhood as she does.
