38 shootings on that list since 1996. In the whole world? And these weren’t even all school kids in the list? Not sure what I’m failing to register here. Less than 5 per year there. I think that list is just shooting sprees, because I swear I’ve heard of people being shot in school when I was living in Ohio.
Before I was in high school I know a kid in my town beat his parents to death with a baseball bat and set the house on fire. While I was in high school a father caught his wife fooling around with a friend of his son’s. He killed the son and son’s friend, chased fruitlessly after the wife, then killed himself. Another guy was in a standoff with the cops holding his own family hostage over, shit, I can’t remember.
…Grand scheme of things, I’m not too concerned, really. It is sad, though. But there’s an awful lot of people in the world, and they’ve been killing each other for a while.
When I was in school I was frustrated beyond belief by the teachers and students. As far back as grade school I remember having daydreams of burning the school down. I felt like my voice wasn’t being heard, people didn’t understand me, I didn’t fit in. The list goes on and on.
In middle school I had one gym teacher (male) who’d smack me around with a paddle (not just once but as a standard punishment for whatever). It would happen in the locker room, bare assed, in front of everyone. He had a habit of doing this with kids. The school office wouldn’t hear complaints of this teacher and he was still there when I left.
One day after not doing my best and goofing off in class another gym teacher (a female) called me over to the entrance near the girls locker for “a talk”. When I got there she knocked on the girls locker door and 10 girls came out with mouthfuls of water and to spit on me. I got so pissed off I left and went home. When I arrived the next morning I got in trouble for “skipping” the last few classes. Result: Kicked out for a week. Of course the school as much said if I had a problem with what the gym teacher did I should have gone to the office and not home.
I was having a small verbal back and forth with a kid. Mostly “your mamma” type insults. At one point I called his girlfriend a bitch (which, she was). He smacked me square in the face. A teacher arrived and hauled us both up to the office. I got kicked out, he returned to class. I never quite understood that one.
I think it’s safe to say I understand how some of these kids feel.
That said, I never allowed my hatred for the teachers and students to overcome me enough to go on a killing spree. At the end of the day I gave up. I quit school waving my middle finger behind me.
Listen, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. You’re looking far deeper into what I wrote than what I had intended. You’ve also asked me questions which held no relevance to the points I had made, which is also a logical fallacy.
So, let me recap my stance on this issue. I don’t believe that this school shooting represents that there’s “something wrong with this country.” The sample you’re using to vaildate this opinion is a Hasty Generalization.
On a personal note, I’ll have absolutely no worries about being shot when I return to school next week.
Okay, but even if we were only talking about one or two shooting sprees per month, wouldn’t that be a disturbing pattern? Second, I’m curious about your recollections of Ohio, do you have any links?
True, people can be brutal and insane.
But wouldn’t the statistics speak towards a trend where brutal crazy kids go nuts in schools, specifically?
Mmmm… Kalisti!
But I think there’s more to it.
Seven: Thanks for the response… But even if kids were frustrated at all the teachers and some of the students, would they still go berserk and kill people randomly who’d done no wrong? Something seems wrong to me with this situation now… and I can’t quite put my finger on it. That, in and of itself, is rather disturbing to me right now.
I’m certain that you are correct. Nashville had a shooting in a school parking lot last week at Maplewood High School. And when I was teaching, I had more than one student involved in school shootings.
Sometimes the school principals want the shootings disassociated with the schools. For example, even though the shooting at Maplewood took place on school grounds as school was getting out, ever effort was made to emphasize in the media that they were not Maplewood students. (Eventually it was revealed that they had attended the year before.)
We had an armed robbery of a teacher and she was asked to keep it quiet. It was reported only to the school policeman. Other teachers weren’t warned. It was never in the papers.
No, in any context.
“All kids who go on rampages do so in school. Why schools?”
“It doesn’t happen that often.”
Non sequitor.
Um… no. It’s not a logical fallacy to try to tie your comments back to the OP. I’m asking why this is happening, and why specifically in schools. You are responding with non-answers. If pointing out that you’re not answering my question is a fallacy, I dun wanna be right.
How on earth is it a hasty generalization?
All (or almost all) massacres which are perpetrated by children go down at schools. There is obviously something which makes kids choose a school over, say, a church youth group. I am asking why this is. Point out my logical fallacy please.
And, just as a quibble, I never said there was anything wrong with this country, I asked what was wrong with things in this country. Obviously one construction is an over-generalization, while the other is asking about specific events (eg. school killing sprees).
You keep bringing up this non sequitor as if it means anything.
Again, kids who snap seem to do it at school, and to take out a lot of innocent people. Your lack of fear does not change this fact, nor do your non sequitors. Do you plan on addressing the OP, or would you like to continue talking about how you feel safe?
I wonder if they were different phenomena?
The current spate of school slayings seems, at least from what I understand, to be tipified by randomness. Aren’t other school shootings crimes against specific individuals? If not, doesn’t it speak towards a pattern of lunatic children taking their frustrations out in school?
Interesting… might this speak to a coverup of the actual numbers though?
Mother of mercy… Not quite the same thing, but it does address overall school security…
Why peers? Well, most students interact mainly with their family, teachers, and fellow students; they don’t interact much with other members of society in comparison. I think that very few if any school shootings are motivated purely by a desire to kill lots of random innocents. I assume that the killers feel that the victims deserve it for some reason or another. It’s highly unlikely that totally annonymous people are going to inspire someone to kill a bunch of folks.
What is it, if it’s not school culture? I think the answer would have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Generally, I don’t think generalizing is an effective way to deal with this issue (heh). That said, my guess is that in most of these situations, the kid is unable to deal effectively with what he or she feels (perhaps rightly) is an oppressive and unmanagable dynamic, whether with parents, classmates, or whomever. An important question (though not the only one) is why is the kid not given the tools to deal with those situations, and/or why have the people who are supposed to be caring for that individual not identified this issue and tried to help.
As acknowledged, it’s very likely that the list is incomplete, and more incidents took place than are recorded on this website.
It appears that all bar four or five of the shooters were school kids (all bar two in the USA - Darrell Ingram (Savannah) who was 19 but not reported as being a student still, and the shooter at Lake Clifton Eastern High School (Baltimore), who it appears was never identified).
One or two of the shooters had been expelled from school (including one in Germany), while several are recorded as having been the victims of bullying and/or ostracism.
I guess I don’t understand why you’re so bewildered that kids kill kids and adults at school. Where does a child or youth spend a majority of their time? Not at work, not at home - they’re at school. What’s probably the major cause of most stress in kids? Most likely school and parents are tied neck and neck, but given familial affection I can only assume that most kids are going to off the people at school before they whack their parents.
I’m guessing that church, the grocery store, the post-office or courthouse or city park just aren’t consistant causes of frustration and anger for kids. Add to this poor anger management, mental issues and the availability of weapons and I think that’s your answer. After all, I believe it’s rare for most people, kids or not, to go randomly shooting up places they’ve got no connection whatsoever with. Adults just spend more time in various places.
Common sense, Finn: kids go to school five days a week during the school year and it’s the source of a lot of the tension in their lives. If you’re a kid who’s snapped and decided to go out shooting, where else would you go BUT school?
I don’t have a recent cite, but school shootings are not an increasing trend. It’s sad and horrible that they happen, but last I knew, if anything they’re happening less often. They’re getting far more media attention than ever, of course.
shijinn, Maendosa, GusNSpot, Marley23: a very good point about time spent in schools… I guess it does make sense that a child who was primarily sad/angry beause of school and who spent most of their time there would go berserk there too…
But how do we deal with it? So far in this thread we’ve seen suggestions that it’s access to guns, and/or the enviornment in which a child finds themself which contributes to these kinds of crimes… But can these really be prevented? Or are we looking at a continued trend of these sorts of killings?
And, yes, I know that school slayings aren’t increasing, but they are continuing… that is disturbing to me. I mean… our society had guns in the 50’s, right? And there weren’t one or two multiple-killings in America’s schools each year… what’s changed, or at least, what’s changed that would have this direct effect?
You answered it yourself. School is a place where kids encounter a lot of frustration. Peer pressure, rejection, bullying - it’s a place of great anxieties. A kid that snaps is gonna get even with the things that made him snap (it’s always a ‘him’, right?).
What this says about your country - or any other where school shootings occur, is another matter. But I don’t find it strange at all that school kids do it on schools
I suppose this is a good answer… I still have trouble looking at it in quite such a clinical manner. It seems that kids who’d do things like this are, well, nuts. Maybe this kind of murderous rage is a part of many adolescent human psyches… but that would worry me too.
I guess to a degree I still don’t quite understand… if a child is made miserable by school, but doesn’t think the whole world is like that, why not wait a few years and graduate? If they think the whole word is like that, why not kill any random people they see that day?
I don’t know. I’d like to think that if kids had some more support and perspective, and let’s not forget psychological help for these types, it wouldn’t happen, or it’d happen less. But I don’t know.
This seems to me to be part and parcel of the issue at hand… perhaps we wouldn’t see these sorts of things happening in our schools if we made further efforts to eliminate bullying and to provide help for those at risk? Is this just a loosing battle? I’m not one to accept defeat without a struggle…
We shouldn’t forget that attacks using weapons other than guns occur at schools. I recall an occasion in the past year, in the States, I believe, where six students were wounded by a feloow student who attacked them with a knife. Clearly, the likelihood of deaths increases with guns, so one question must be how to prevent 6-18 year olds (there was a 6-year old in Michael Moore’s hometown of Flint who shot a classmate, if I recall correctly) from gettign hold of guns.
Another reason it may happen in schools rather than other youth activities is because the youth group, or going to the mall, etc is voluntary, i.e. they want to be at these places.
Also, how many of these kids have already killed their parents/guardians before they shoot up the school? It might be a bit of a “Well, I’m already fucked… what else have I always wanted to do?” thought process.