Agreeing to participate in the game of Tag automatically gives consent to tagging for the purposes of the game. Didn’t you guys get recess contracts when you were in grade school?
Now you are going on about “implied consent”?
I would call it “active consent” since you need to be active in the game of tag. A person watching the game is not consenting to be tagged.
And even it it was “implied consent”, sitting in my cubicle at work is not implied consent for any touching from other people at work so I fail to see your analogy working any further.
Thank you.
The second part? Do “you allow that someone who says one [a seasonal greeting] to someone for whom it might end up being an unwelcome greeting is not behaving in an out of bounds fashion”?
Some, to the degree that they even consider the thought, do not see the risk of offending someone with one or the other greeting to be very significant, and, again to the degree they consider it at all, see some gain in most cases of offering one.
It is not too dissimilar with expressive touch of the hand on back of hand briefly in conversation or hand on arm or shoulder in comfort variety. Like saying either seasonal greeting some choose to not risk either and many do not consider (or receive) them as even potentially offensive or unwanted (even though the nonzero potential exists for all of them.)
Check out your two paraphrases of me, see if you can find the difference.
You can see, I trust, why the first one is a fantasy?
The second one is what I teach kids. I also teach them reason, so that they are capable of holding a reasonable belief.
I get that you don’t like that. Unfortunately for you, what I teach is directly in line with what folks who work with victims of sexual violence teach. My teachings are mainstream and follow not only cultural norms, but the norms advocated by advocates and experts in the field. Your approach–apparently that the standards for consent for intimate touch be expanded to cover all touch–are far outside of the mainstream, and not what experts advocate.
Is it? And what should the kids do if after they touched someone, the person let them know it was unwanted?
I do not see any “gain” in saying Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. That’s why I don’t do it.
I don’t equate someones words with someones touch, so it does seem dissimilar to me.
It’s not reasonable to believe that every co-worker wants people they’re not even close to to put a hand on their shoulder when they get bad news. Even if you object strenuously to calling it a ‘shoulder rub’. It’s not reasonable to believe that every co-worker wants a light closed hand hit in the arm. Even if you rage that a closed hand hit that is light could not possibly be called a light punch. It’s not reasonable to believe that every co-worker wants you to grasp their hand to emphasize a point. Even if you make a big show about how it’s definitely a grasp and calling it a grab is awful. It’s not reasonable to take ahold of someone and pull them in close to emphasize a connection. Even if you argue at length that it’s not manhandling them to pull them closer.
It amazes me how much effort some people spend objecting to the idea that they need consent to touch other people, especially someone who claims to work with the victims of sexual assault. Do you really think strolling around and light-closed-hand-fist-but-don’t-call-it-a-punch-ing people who’ve got PTSD from being beaten with a closed fist is a reasonable? Or that pull-close-for-emphasis-but-don’t-call-it-grabbing-or-manhandling someone who’s been slammed to the ground as part of a rape or assault is wanted touch? The attitude of “I get to decide when and how I can touch you” is just gross, and the effort to determine whether someone welcomes the touch is so absurdly minimal that I can’t believe people keep arguing it.
Good thing no one in this thread makes these claims.
Can you accept that some others do?
And I appreciate that you consider any touch to be … different.
Sure I accept that some others do. But people saying “Merry Christmas” or “Happy Holidays” are not touching me. I don’t really care about what people say, as long as they keep their hands to themselves.
Because, like I said, I consider someone speaking to me different than someone touching me.
Yes, we all get that for you, and a few others, touch of any sort is different and should be presumed to be unwanted unless explicitly communicated otherwise.
And we, you inclusive, get that for a few being greeted with “Happy Holidays!” is offensive (“How dare they not say ‘Merry Christmas!’”) and that for a different few being greeted with “Merry Christmas!” offends.
And we, you inclusive I think, understand that some, not you, will expressively touch (the brief touch on the forearm or intended as empathic hand on the back of hand sort) because they experience such as facilitating communication and as a net gain for the interaction the vast majority of the time, just as some, not you, will give a seasonal greeting, as they experience an interaction gain from doing so the vast majority of the time.
All agreed so far?
Those who are offended by one or the other seasonal greeting are no less offended by that than you are by someone presuming to touch your forearm as part of conversation. For you touch is different, for them one or the other of those greetings are.
They are not equally offensive to you but to some touch like that is of no consequence and one of those greetings is offensive. Both you and them though live in a society in which most others do not share interpreting the things that bother them as offensive, and in which it is not unreasonable for well intended others to presume that the action will not be received negatively. (Dang that’s a lot of negatives … sorry, but stating it all positively does change the meaning some.)
Despite my clumsy excessive negatives, does that make sense to you?
It does make sense, yes. But I think a lot more people DO find it offensive but are simply unwilling to make waves by letting people know that. As a parallel in a TV show, there was a Seinfeld episode where Kramer hung everyone’s picture in the lobby of their building. And everyone started kissing everyone on the cheek when they met them in the building. Jerry didn’t like that, and he put up with it for a while until he finally told everyone that he wasn’t doing it anymore. Then they ostracized him for not wanting to kiss everyone in greeting anymore.
Perhaps, like Jerry, people in office environments are afraid to speak up about the touching or hugging they are getting for fear of being perceived badly. “No touching” rules would free those people from having to bear it, while the only harm to others is they can’t touch people anymore at the office.
As for the Christmas greetings, I understand that some people might be offended by “Merry Christmas” and some might be offended by “Happy Holidays”. Therefore, to make it as easy and as non-threatening as possible for everyone that I encounter, I don’t say either one of those phrases. But it seems like some people feel some sort of imperative that they HAVE to say one, and then apologize afterward if the person is offended. Same with touching on the arm or shoulder. I find it easier to NOT do things that may upset some people, instead of STILL doing them and then apologizing afterward, especially since NOT doing those things does not hurt me in any way.
Almost. The harm is twofold:
- People who communicate warmth and affection through touch wouldn’t be able to do it anymore.
- People whose days are improved by being touched in ways that communicate warmth and affection wouldn’t have their days improved in this way anymore.
I don’t include myself much in the first group, but I definitely include myself in the second group. The small touches I described earlier in the thread are the sort of touches that make my day better. Often I’m dealing with the emotional fallout of, say, a kid whose uncle died over the weekend, or a kid who suffered a meltdown because of a lack of sleep, or whatever. My nerves can be pretty frazzled by dealing with kids’ raw emotion all day long, and a hand on the arm from a co-worker can be just the thing to help. It’s not vital for me, but a no touching rule would make the day a little bit harder for me.
I agree that your workplace is clearly different than mine and definitely would require a different standard than, say, a government office containing nothing but adults.
But if a person from the first group was complaining that they couldn’t communicate warmth and affection through touch anymore due to office rules, I would find that ridiculous.
A person from the second group could simply verbally assent to a comforting touch. So I guess “No touching without verbal consent” would be a good policy. I should have stated that up front 
I’ve been reading this whole thread with fascination, and finally I feel that I need to jump in and say something (though others have expressed thoughts similar to mine further upthread).
“No touching is acceptable before receiving clear verbal consent” just isn’t the norm in U.S. society, no matter how much some of you wish it were. It just isn’t.
Here’s one example I keep thinking of. Forget playful punches; that just degenerates into an argument about where the line is between playful and aggressive. And also forget about hands on shoulders to offer condolences. I’ve worked in offices for more than 20 years and I’m not sure either of those scenarios have ever come up.
But here’s a situation where I’m gonna touch you. We’re all in the conference room and the meeting adjourns. You’re standing in a cluster of people talking, and I need to get by to get to the door. So I touch you lightly on the shoulder blade, or shoulder, or upper arm. You look up, and I gesture with my head that I want to get by. You take a step forward, I go by and out the door, and we both go about our day.
That whole interaction probably took 2-3 seconds, and in my opinion the touch communicated my intent more efficiently and with less disruption to your conversation than if I had verbally said “excuse me.” I feel it’s actually MORE respectful of you and the others in your conversation. And I would do that whether you’re male or female, young or old, big or small and so on. There would certainly be no sexual or aggressive overtones. Also, I’m not going to touch your head or your leg or your stomach, for example. We all recognize that any of those would be weird and probably unwanted.
Does anyone see anything in that non-verbal conversation that would be offensive, unwelcome, unprofessional and so on?
Dislaimer: I’m coming in late and have not read the previous 6 pages.
In cases where someone absolutely feels like they need a hug or want to offer a hug, they can just say, “Do you need a hug?”, or, “Can I have a hug?”
I don’t think it’s entirely appropriate or wise in a professional environment, but I would not go so far as to forbid it as a matter of policy in the workplace.
Yep. Don’t touch me. Say “Excuse me” and I’ll move out of the way.
If you can’t hear or see them can they tap you on the shoulder? I don’t mean do you want to be tapped on the shoulder, is it appropriate for them to tap you on the shoulder or should they just stand there and wait until you decide to move for some other reason?
I don’t know, say it louder? What part of this is impossible to comprehend?
Whatever scenario you devise (that doesn’t include an emergency) where you want to know if it’s appropriate to touch me at work without getting my consent, the answer will be no. There, I’ve saved you a lot of work.
Here is a good post from another thread that is sort of what I’m talking about: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20651870&postcount=14