It’s a good thing no one but ZPG Zealot is arguing for that to be the standard, and a good thing no one is claiming that it is ‘the norm’ in US society.
Already had that discussion back on the first or second page. Those of us who think you should only touch people with consent (other than maybe ZPG Zealot) specifically are not talking about tapping a shoulder to get attention, bumping into someone in a crowded elevator, pulling someone out of the way of an onrushing car, stopping catastrophic bleeding, or anything along those lines. We’re talking about voluntary touching in day-to-day circumstances, like hugging, grasping an arm to make a point, pulling someone in to indicate a connection, patting someone on the head, play-punching, putting a hand on the shoulder, picking lint off of clothes, and the like.
If you’ve read the thread, you’ll see that “we all” don’t recognize that, as there are people arguing that it is perfectly reasonable to grasp any co-workers arm, place a hand on any co-worker’s shoulder, pull any co-worker closer in, and the like without in any way checking with the person being touched. There’s even one person who insists vehemently that lightly closed-fist-striking a co-worker’s arm is something that HR should not be able to warn someone to knock off. (And also that using the p-word for closed-fist-striking is highly offensive). I honestly don’t get how you can come into a thread where people actively argue that they will put their hands on the shoulders of sad people without asking or prior interaction, and then say that everyone agrees that it would be weird and probably unwanted.
I don’t see how the cited post helps. I understand exactly what you are saying, I’m not criticizing you for feeling as you do, but I don’t understand how you think the accepted rules of appropriateness could be so restricted. The tap on the shoulder to get someone’s attention, when other non-contact methods have failed, is harmless, and I would hope a report to HR or a call to the police to report a battery would be disregarded. And I doubt you would resort to that in such circumstances either.
My point is that the rules, formal or informal, must be based on some level of reasonableness and practicality and a more general consensus that can’t satisfy every singles person’s perception of the effects of touching.
We are also at the fringes here, I don’t think people should touch other people without permission, verbal or non-verbal, with very few exceptions such as the tap on the shoulder where other non-contact means of gaining attention fail, being in a crowded space, and of course, emergencies. And by non-verbal permission I mean something that involves physical action, not “I saw that look in her eyes”.
That’s fine “when other non-contact methods have failed”. The scenario about blocking the doorway didn’t even mention trying non-contact methods, just went right to touching.
So, sure, tapping someone to get their attention after non-contact methods have failed, I’ll go with.
Two things, then it seems this topic has been beaten to death:
I take the metro to and from work everyday. And there are always people blocking the seats, the doors, and the walkways in the station. I don’t think I’ve had to touch anyone in order to get them to move out of the way in the 15 years I’ve been taking it, so I know it’s possible.
My cousin was in a gossipy spat with a coworker of hers, and tapped her coworker on the shoulder to get her attention. Her coworker reported her to HR, and sure enough, my cousin was fired for “unwanted touching” so I know there are places that do that.
Absolutely, Simply saying “excuse me” and not laying your hands on your co-workers would be the respectful, courteous thing to do. There is simply no reason other than to save someone from imminent physical danger for you to put your hands on someone without asking permission. The problem is so many of men have gotten away with it for so long some are now convinced they have a “right” to be groping. While you claim you have no sexual or aggressive overtones in such gestures, with far too many men that is not the case and women cannot ignore the possibility of the latter.
It is astonishing that, despite repeated observations that for a lot of us it’s women who engage in this sort of innocuous touch far more than men, you diagnose the problem as predatory men. You do you!
Because the real problem is predatory men trying to claim they were only making “innocuous touches”. Until that becomes as offensive in the workplace as using racial and ethnic slurs to describe co-workers can the concept of “innocuous touches” be considered.
And, y’know, perhaps not. This is where, despite at least one poster’s complaints about them, cited research and studies are called for.
And as you may recall (see post#95) those studies showed that overwhelmingly expressive touch within those broad bounds (i.e. not giving a back rub, touching a knee, patting a tush, but the typical expressive touch that many use) is NOT found offensive by hardly anyone. Instead those touched in this casual manner behave more honestly to the toucher, increase the time and money spent in a retail environment, increase their rate of volunteerism, and in medical settings perceive the touch as improving the quality of the communication and as enhancing a feeling of
being really understood. The vast vast majority respond to it as does LHOD, as something that makes his day better.
It must be again emphasized, as LHOD noted, most of explaining how, in a contextually fluid way, expressive touch is generally a widely acceptable art of communication, are minimal or no-touchers ourselves. We are among the touched. And I am open to the consideration that part of the context within American culture at large is the gender of the toucher as overwhelmingly the touchers in my work environment are female. I am close with my male partner and have known him a very long time, but our touch contact is the very occasional joking around fist bump or high five. The two regular expressive touchers are one of my female partners and our female nurse practitioner (who has been with us since Spring). It may be that males in general in our culture have less skill or comfort touching expressively. Or it could be that they are more aware that their touch might be more likely to interpreted as threatening or as of sexual intent or otherwise more likely to not be welcome outside of more specific contexts. Not sure.
So, what is your opinion about the touches I described above, all women touching other women or men?
I mean, I agree the real problem is what you said; I just don’t think that has anything to do with what we’re talking about here. It looks like you’re saying the touches I’ve been talking about aren’t a real problem, since there’s zero chance they’re from a predatory man, but I don’t want to put words into your mouth.
I was just, about an hour ago, talking to one of my employees about the memorial service I am going to tomorrow for my friend. My voice broke up a bit, and my eyes watered, and she asked, “Do you want a hug?”
I said yes, and she hugged me and let me drop a few tears on her shoulder.
I think unless you know well enough to bet your job that the person you wish to touch approves of you touching them, the only right way to do it is to ask verbally, in a non-threatening manner, so that everything is clear. Far to many people use the excuse of “they won’t mind” or “they gave non-verbal consent”. Consent has to be clear and it has to be real consent not obtained through embarrassing someone or implying non-consent will effect their job. Anything else should be assumed an HR accountable situation.
I recently nominated a coworker for a state-level award, which he won. During the celebration ceremony, he told me that the words I wrote about him almost made him cry. At which point I asked him for a hug and he enthusiastically accepted. It’s probably super relevant that his entire job was about teaching consent!
I realize moments like this probably don’t come up a lot at most workplaces, but I can see it happening fairly often at my particular nonprofit. Some people just are not huggers, I’ve been in positions where I would have preferred not to hug, so I just try to be aware, whether at work or elsewhere.
I’m sorry to hear about your friend. Would you like a virtual hug?
Okay, but that’s a totally different problem from predatory men. Are there two real problems, or what?
I’m not trying to be gotcha-ing. It’s just that your “predatory men” comment seems like a complete non sequitur, and I’m trying to figure out how it fits into the conversation.
