I never claimed that the person touching without permission is the ‘devil incarnate’, please provide a quote if you want to stick to that nonsense. The person triggering trauma is an insensitive jackass who doesn’t respect other people’s personal space and is unwilling to put in a minimal effort to avoid hurting other people, but that’s not the same thing as ‘devil incarnate’.
I don’t believe you. If you’d actually regret making someone uncomfortable by touching them when they didn’t want to be, why wouldn’t you avoid your regret and their unconfomfortableness by ascertaining whether they want to be touched before touching them? I just don’t buy an apology that runs “Well I set your cat on fire, and I’m really sorry that upset you, and I won’t do it again” when you could have easily asked whether I want my cat set on fire before you torch it.
The only person arguing for explicit verbal consent is ZPG Zealot, who’s not someone I can really discuss outside of the pit, and certainly doesn’t represent any significant group of people. The issue at hand IS NOT explicit verbal consent, unless you limit your conversation only to ZPG zealot’s claims, in which case you should respond directly to their posts and not mine. I certainly have NEVER said that you need explicit verbal consent, and neither have the non ZPG people arguing that you should get consent before touching people.
No, you don’t get to assume that people want you to put your hands on them, then grab them and ‘apologize’ if they object. Like I said before, the apology is clearly not sincere if you just assume you get to be touchy feely, refuse to check whether it’s OK, then go in for a grab, pat, fondle, groom, or whatever action. It’s the refusing to check whether the other person wants it that’s a problem. You keep talking like you just want to be a nice person, but you also absolutely refuse to actually put in the minimal effort required to be sure that what you’re doing is actually nice.
I’ll repeat what I said earlier: If you (or ‘plenty of people’) really think this is an harmless touching that you can engage in unless someone specifically tells you not to, would you think it’s a good idea to grasp a cop’s arm or hand to emphasize your point when you’re trying to talk your way out of a ticket? Or pat the visiting CEO of your company on the head when he comes to visit? Or pick lint off of of judge’s collar while you’re in court? I think the number of people who would even think to try that sort of thing is pretty low, ‘communicating’ with someone in a position of power/authority over you by unwanted touching tends not to end well. Same with someone who’s likely to beat the crap out of you and mostly get away with it. For example, are you really going to pat a redneck on the head at a backwoods bar? Grab a biker’s arm to emphasize your point at a biker bar? Pick lint off of a drunken frat boy’s shoulder at a college dive bar?
I REALLY don’t think that plenty of people consider any of what I outlined to be a good idea, but if the touch is actually harmless and you can engage in it unless someone specifically tells you not to, you’d see no issue with engaging in it in these situations.
I once had a male boss that would sometimes grab my upper arm when giving instructions. It could be that he did this to all employees, but I only noticed him doing it with the female staff.
I don’t think it was sexual. It felt more like a power move, a way to let someone know he’s in control of this ship and everyone in it. However, I’m positive if you asked my boss what he meant by that touch, he’d probably say he was just suggesting a “connection”.
Now I didn’t give my boss an earful about, but that’s not because I wasn’t bothered. It’s because I cared about my career. Working in a predominately male field, you learn to put up with a lot of shit, and I wasn’t about to throw away all I had worked for up to that moment just to put someone in his place.
However, I did have to give a fellow coworker an “earful” a couple of years ago for grabbing my arm. He had been touching me in little annoying ways up to that point, but I hadn’t said anything because I mistakenly thought my body language was clear enough that I didn’t like it. He finally figured things out when I blurted out “don’t touch me!” I know he didn’t intend to put me in that situation, but he nontheless created the situation by being more interested in forcing a connection than seeing if I even wanted one.
I think a lot of “suggest a connection” touchers think that as long as no one says anything, they’re in the clear. But to me, that’s like waiting for someone to tell you that you have body odor before wearing deoderant. Just wear deoderant, folks! Most people don’t want to hurt a well-intentioned person’s feelings, even when their own feelings are being imposed upon. They don’t want to be the person who gets blamed for making a situation awkward. Touchers (or anyone who skirts the edges of personal boundaries) shouldn’t use the lack of verbal dissent as a green light.
When I want to make a connection with a person, I joke around with them. I attempt to exchange looks with them during staff meetings etc… I invite them to lunch or to whatever candy I’m eating. But I wouldn’t think of suggesting a connection through touch until we’re already standing firmly on “friendship” territory. I playfully punch my friends on the arm. But I’m not going to try to make you my friend by playfully punching you on the arm.
Touch is one of those things where the golden rule doesn’t apply.
No, the answer to the second is really easy: “if they let you know that it’s appropriate.” If you can’t interpret their ‘cultural context’ or body language well enough to see an actual ‘yes’, then they haven’t let you know that it’s appropriate, so you don’t grasp their arm or fondle their hair or smack their butt. You can then either fall back on asking the person or just… don’t touch them. You don’t say ‘well I don’t understand your cultural context, so it’s OK for me to start grabbing your body to force a connection until you get bothered enough to risk your job to tell me to stop’.
I mean, we had these rules in third grade in elementary school and none of the third graders had a hard time figuring out that you don’t get to put your hands on other people unless they say so, why is this easy enough for 8-year-olds to understand and not adults?
Which is why explicit verbal consent should be the gold standard for what is acceptable. There is a small fraction of the population that has trouble reading and sending nonverbal signals, but there’s a much larger segment of the population that will gladly use any excuse to violate others.
Do you exchange verbal consents first? Maybe get something signed?
OF COURSE in normal communication, verbal and non-verbal, one must pay attention to context and body language, and respond appropriately to the messages being given. Most humans, well neurotypical ones, are able to appreciate context and read the non-verbal cues fairly well most of the time.
The idea that gently holding the hand or touching the shoulder of someone as you express condolences is to be presumed as “taking advantage” of them is a very disturbed one to me.
In the thread that this one came from a poster stated that if I touch at work I had better be a masseuse. I’m not. And while my profession does still require me to touch … I’m a pediatrician … I also have touched outside of clinical exams or procedures. For example when I’ve had to tell parents that their child has something bad and explain the next steps, my hand has occasionally been on a father or mother’s shoulder as I am expressing empathy for their worry and trying to be supportive at some point before they have left. No, I was not using their being upset to take advantage of them. Not touching in that context I would consider to be inappropriate. Cold. Blind to the context and the body language. Of course I am reading and reacting to body language and context, but no, I am not asking for verbal consent to touch Dad gently on the shoulder as I express support. That would be weird and get in the way of the communication (which is simultaneously both of factual and of psychosocial contents) in process.
There is touch that is clearly inappropriate or assaultive without explicit consent outside perhaps of certain well established intimate relationships in which nonverbal communication of consent can be trusted. Grabbing someones buttocks for example.
Certain touch would be odd to even ask for consent to give. Asking to stroke my CEOs hair (though he does have very nice hair), or someone asking to rub my bald head for good luck, for example.
Other touch is not only inappropriate for the context but stupid to attempt. Grabbing a cop by the arm as you are stopped, for example.
The belief that all touch is of those sorts … ? No. It is not.
Touch is not inherently sexual or even intimate. It can however, as part of normal effective communication with attention to context and body language, establish connection. Touch ignoring those things is not only going to fail to establish a connection, but will be counterproductive.
Watch politicians work a room. Lots of appropriate touching without verbal consents given. Hands on shoulders, handshakes of the two hands used variety one holding the hand one up the arm, rubbing kids heads. They do it because it makes connections. Presidential primary hopefuls are in Iowa not just to give speeches but to literally press the flesh. And the effective gladhandler reads the nonverbal body language of “not me buddy” without thinking. Pretty sure some here are not approached by anyone as their body language likely screams hedgehog. Someone touching them is someone ignoring or completely blind to nonverbal communication. But sure, sometimes, in every line of communication, verbal and nonverbal alike, even written, miscommunication occurs.
Now I (a male which to some I think matters) readily admit I am more one being touched than a toucher. I more often am put into a hug or have a hand placed upon my hand or shoulder as part of communication (and more often by females than males) than do that myself. I do not want those touches but neither do I object to them. They are, in context, not socially inappropriate, they are just the style of the person, and that includes some very powerful, strong, and accomplished women who I admire and respect. They are not taking advantage of me in any way, even if the touch is not particularly wanted. I won’t catch cooties that way and I do not have a condition that touch causes me pain.
I find the revulsion some here have to being touched, say on the shoulder or arm, by others, to be … well as Spock would have said: “fascinating.” But not normal.
This–and much else of your post–is my experience as well. I have a coworker who occasionally will put a hand on my arm and leave it there while she tells me a story. I’m not her type–I’ve met her wife–it’s just part of her communication style. It’s very easy for me to distinguish between this sort of touch, and, say, someone putting a hand on my knee and licking their lips while we sit beside each other.
I believe that was me. But come on, you think everyone is talking about a pediatrician examining a child? Do you read a chart or whatever with a nurse and put your arm around her shoulders while you are doing it? Do you playfully punch your colleagues in the arm as you walk by?
It’s great you want to comfort a dad, but you won’t know if he wants the shoulder touch until after you’ve already done it. That’s what the issue is. I don’t go around hugging people and then apologizing afterwards if they felt uncomfortable. The point is not to make them uncomfortable in the first place.
That’s a pretty good prescriptive answer, to a question about “How should I behave toward other people?”
It’s not a good descriptive answer, to a question about “How do people behave toward one another, in ways that are generally considered appropriate? What norms do they follow?”
I remember hearing that waitresses get better tips if they touch their customers. Here’s one cite:
Considering I explicitly stated outside of clinical exams and procedures, it should be pretty clear to anyone who is not reading impaired or intentionally trying to misrepresent that I do not think that anyone is talking about those things.
And come on, you think anyone is talking about putting arms around the shoulders of nurses while reading a chart? Playfully punching a colleague in the arm? Well, okay, yes playful punching has happened in the workplace. And fistbumps. We’ve worked together a long time. But context. Those were in context of sharing about outside of work life events.
As to my attempts to communicate empathy in the professional setting … I have not experienced that normal human communication process making anyone uncomfortable. And to broaden the scope - I’ve long served as a member of our larger group’s Quality Assurance committee which reviews complaints against staff. Lots of complaints through the years about how a doctor seemed cold and uncaring even as they communicated all the facts accurately … not one about how a touching the hand or the shoulder to communicate empathy was offensive or uncomfortable. Not one.
If I was to hazard a guess I’d wager that those who do that sort of touch in that sort of context have fewer complaints and higher patient satisfaction scores in general than those who would feel the need to get consent first or who fail to use that line of communication at all.
LHOD nice to know you aren’t skipping my posts any more!
No quote to offer, as I was clearly exaggerating for effect. But my point is that in much of your input to this discussion, you see nefarious intent on the part of people like me. For example…
Here you have explicitly called me a liar, and claimed that I would not regret making someone uncomfortable. Moreover, you have equated a hand on someone’s shoulder with setting their cat on fire, which is getting bizarre.
You’ve claimed not to be arguing for prior verbal consent. But if I don’t obtain prior verbal consent, then I’m necessarily relying on nonverbal means. There would be innocent mistakes from time to time, and the way it looks now, I stand to lose a lot if I get it wrong; a person like you would accuse me of selfishly taking advantage and take all available steps to create the strongest possible adverse consequences for me. That’s the thing that bothers me; it’s the thing that makes me want to avoid touching anyone, even if I think they might appreciate being touched.
As another poster said:
Exactly.
The only alternatives I can see are prior verbal consent, which would be awkwardly robotic (“may I place a hand on your shoulder to provide emotional support while I deliver some awful news?”), or maintaining a strict no-contact policy, which seems like an inhumanly cold failure to acknowledge the intense emotional nature of the interaction.
If a touchee is uncomfortable with rejecting unwanted touch, are they really going to be comfortable with saying no when explicitly asked for permission beforehand?
The point is they will be considerably less uncomfortable with saying no when explicitly asked for permission beforehand than they will be with being touched without permission. You know, it’s absolutely horrible the mental gymnastics some people will go through trying to justify predatory, bullying behavior. Don’t touch someone without their permission. It’s six words. Very easy to understand.
“Gymnastics” does not begin to describe the twisting that goes into characterizing the touch being talked about here as “predatory” or “bullying”. Even assuming a circumstance in which the toucher has misread the context and the body language and the touch turns out to be unwanted (which I’d posit is uncommon but admittedly nonzero), we are explicitly not talking about those touching with intent to prey or bully upon others. That you perceive the sorts of touch being discussed here as that says something. I’m just not sure what that something is.
The set of touches we’re talking about here is pretty broad, but it explicitly includes grabbing an arm to emphasize a point. Now I’ve never had that happen to me, but then I’m a large male. On reading it I was astonished to hear that it happens at all - I would consider that an explicit attempt to dominate the other person by invading their personal space. I would never do such a thing because it would be threatening - particularly if the person I was grabbing was smaller, shorter, or frailer than me.
This is not to say that all touches in this thread are of that type - a tap on the shoulder would have to be quite the tap to be threatening. But it’s not like that’s the only type of physical contact that is being passed off as “casual”.
