Bolding added. You could have made your point (about how you don’t like being touched but you accept it as part of living in society) without the value judgments, thank you very much. If you deal with things that way, that’s fine. That doesn’t make it the only way to deal with things, or the best way. It just makes it your way.
What kind of empty world are we building where no one can touch one another?
(edit) I have spoken to my lawyers and they agree that your words have touched me in an inappropriate manner.
I am a hugger regardless of sex and depending on the situation, I usually will offer a hug as congratulations or support. I never just go for a hug but open my arms and wait for a reciprocation. I can proudly say I have converted a lot of non huggers to huggers
Probably time to zip up your pants.
Wow, you have a dim view of humanity if you regard someone attempting to comfort a distraught coworker with a hand on their shoulder as “taking advantage of [their] grief to touch them without their consent.” If I ever catch myself doing that, I’ll be sure to offer my humble apologies for maliciously attempting to ease someone’s emotional suffering.
Sure, a hand in someone’s hair is rather more personal, but no touch, of any kind, without prior explicit permission? Ever? Really?
What if the touchee has a massive arterial bleed? Can I then touch them without obtaining explicit permission in advance? Or should Hancock be my role model?
The kind of world I’d like to live in:
If I know ahead of time that someone doesn’t like to ever be touched, then OK, I will respect their wishes and never lay a finger on them under any circumstances. But if I don’t know that ahead of time, I will try to make reasonable assumptions (i.e. I will assume they might appreciate a hand on the shoulder if/when they are truly distraught). If my assumptions are wrong, I’ll apologize, and everybody’s day will go on without much fanfare.
The kind of world I see developing:
I’m just not gonna touch anybody, ever, in any way, because if I do I put my career at risk. Your just found out your kid died? Sorry, you sob and scream as much as you need to, I’ll keep my hands to myself and close your office door on my way out.
Well, combine it with the increase of virtual relationships via technology, and you can simply text them an emoji!
I have written and conducted workshops on this very topic for newly arrived refugees.
The main objective is to prevent problems on the job or in public spaces from intercultural missteps. The takeaways are:
-
There are overall cultural norms regarding this in the U.S. that could be very different from one’s native country/culture, and it’s necessary to learn these by closely observing what Americans generally do. There can be serious consequences if you don’t. In general, Americans probably maintain greater personal space/distance and engage in less contact than your country.
-
Even within the U.S., there will be variations and differences, depending on the context, environment, and the subculture in which you find yourself.
-
What many people seem to ignore is: these “rules” are NOT STATIC (as the OP seems to imply). People often negotiate and adjust these norms, depending on the context and the type of relationship they wish to create or RE-create (i.e., change). In other words, the kind of touching that happens may change over time if two people MUTUALLY wish to do so. The way this happens is usually non-verbal, and involves many complex cues that are difficult to navigate if one is from a different culture, so DO NOT try to do this until you have been thoroughly acculturated to the larger society as well as the local environment. Otherwise, the you may end up fired, in jail, or in other legal jeopardy.
cui bono?
Alright alright alright … I admit it … I stole a few kisses in Middle School … patted a few tushes in High School … but I categorically deny everything the cheerleaders said I did, they had NO RIGHT to beat me up like that … God that was embarrassing …
Nice post, guizot.
Suggests that assessment of behavior involves something more complex than simply “X says Y did this several years ago.” Context can be key, and I suspect most such allegations/incidents will differ in some significant respects.
People should feel free to speak up - both/either to the individual or the organization, and the process should be meaningful.
A very enlightening thread. It demonstrates a part of American culture I was unaware of.
Thank you OP, for asking the question. And thanks to all for your honest replies.
Yes, I acquired a dim view of humanity from knowing trauma survivors who very well may have a panic attack if a stranger comes up behind them and grabs their shoulder. And from talking to black women who are sick of white people touching their hair because they think it’s neat. Or hearing from pregnant women who are appalled that strangers will come up and pat their belly. The fact that it’s likely that none of the people in these events think of themselves as malicious doesn’t change that none of the behavior is OK. And doesn’t change that all of this shoulder-grabbing, hand-holding, head-patting, grooming, that you object to needing consent for is extremely convenient for predatory types.
The fact that you’d give an obviously insincere apology in such situations says a lot about you, BTW. And the obvious insincerity of the apology (especially the sarcasm) highlights that the actions you take aren’t actually about helping the other person, but about either making yourself feel better or making yourself look better to other people. I mean, if you’re genuinely trying to ease someone’s suffering is it really some huge burden to move your hand towards them and see if they welcome the gesture or pull away from it before touching them? It’s really not a lot of work to do. And if you’re really trying to comfort someone but screw up, shouldn’t you give an actual apology instead of a manipulative and sarcastic “Sorry for maliciously trying to make you feel better?”
What if an alien mind controls you and makes you salsa dance while wearing leiderhosen? What then? Incidental contact and emergency situations are pretty obviously not what is being talked about here, and trying to pretend that “don’t grab someone’s shoulder if you don’t know they’re OK with it” is equivalent to “don’t ever administer first aid in an emergency” just highlights how wrong your own position is. Especially when incidental and emergency contact has already been discussed.
Then you’re definitely someone who I don’t want to be around, who would get kicked out of most social events that I go to and would get formal written complaints at work. You don’t get to decide that people want you grabbing their shoulder or patting their head for them, you either get their OK or don’t do it. I’m not sure why this is such a hard concept - if you really don’t have malicious intent, then you should not WANT to be touching someone who doesn’t want it in the first place. But you and others seem absolutely opposed to the idea that the other person’s wishes matter at all, or that you should put in any effort to ascertain them, which is just not nice at all.
While I can’t stop you from making bad decisions in hypothetical worlds you invent in your head, what you outlined is still better than: “You just found out your kid died? Great, I’m going to start putting my hands on you in ways that I like regardless of your wishes, and if you call me out on it I’ll give a sarcastic apology that shows that I clearly think you having a say in who touches your body is completely unreasonable”.
You seriously don’t see why emphasizing a point by grabbing someone’s body might not be something they want? And especially why “suggest a connection” when there isn’t one might leave someone feeling less than happy?
I don’t know any women who actually feel like it’s reasonable for some dude they have to work with to grab their arm to emphasize a point or suggest a ‘connection’. But they may not give you an ‘earful’ because making waves over something so ‘minor’ might cost them a promotion, career, or job. But the fact that people don’t feel they can call you out on your creepy “emphasis” and “suggest a connection” doesn’t actually mean that no one does object.
I’ll repeat what I said earlier:If you really think this is an innocent part of communication, would you think it’s a good idea to grasp a cop’s arm or hand to emphasize your point when you’re trying to talk your way out of a ticket? Or pat the visiting CEO of your company on the head when he comes to visit? Or pick lint off of of judge’s collar while you’re in court? I think the number of people who would even think to try that sort of thing is pretty low, ‘communicating’ with someone in a position of power/authority over you by unwanted touching tends not to end well. Same with someone who’s likely to beat the crap out of you and mostly get away with it. For example, are you really going to pat a redneck on the head at a backwoods bar? Grab a biker’s arm to emphasize your point at a biker bar? Pick lint off of a drunken frat boy’s shoulder at a college dive bar? Just about everyone knows that those examples don’t end well. But for some reason you want to argue that it’s no big deal.
There are also some instances when a human reaction is to want to fuck someone or kill them. Part of living in a society is that you don’t get to just act on every impulsive reaction that crosses your mind.
I’ll shake hands with anyone.
Anyone who hugs me is trying to cop-a-feel, which I don’t object to.
Who was it who decided that “we” should all hug each other? And were their hands clean?
God forbid you talk to them or make any effort to find out what might actually be helpful or comforting.
That’s really all people are saying. Make a fucking effort, pay attention to context and body language, find out what’s okay instead of just assuming. It’s really not hard and will go a long way towards making people genuinely comfortable around you.
And you know what? If we’re at work, we’re just co-workers (not good friends) and I just got some awful news like that? No, don’t touch me. I have gotten news of a close relative’s death while I was at work and all I wanted was to tell my boss so I could leave, and interact with as few of my co-workers as possible on my way out. I can promise if any of them tried to physically comfort me, I would have responded politely, tried my best to appreciate their intent, and felt incredibly uncomfortable around them for a while.
Side-hugs are good.
Are you sure? Side-hugs seem kind of dodgy, dude.
I didn’t mean to imply these rules were static in that sense. Obviously people are free to engage in mutually agreed behavior that involves touching otherwise considered inappropriate. But I also mentioned that this has to be limited in the presence of others. Two colleagues at work may be great friends or have a very intimate relationship, but they still have to limit their behavior to what is acceptable for everyone in the environment. Otherwise they could be creating a hostile working environment and their intimacy might be interpreted as a signal that others can behave in the same way without the same kind of mutual agreement.
As a general note, the current scandals are about people clearly stepping way over the line. There’s a bunch of other threads on that subject, I meant this one to try to define that line where there is some disagreement. I’m not surprised that high NQ* on the Dope produces a lot of opinions that touching is only appropriate in very limited circumstances but I am not so sure that everybody else draws the line that finely. I think there are plenty of people who believe there is ‘harmless touching’ that you can engage in unless someone specifically tells you not to, and that such touching may be a part of communication or culture. I’m also sure a lot of them are using that as an excuse for manipulation in one way or another also, but probably not all of them.
That’s truly unfortunate for the trauma survivor, but it doesn’t mean the stranger is the devil incarnate, as you seem to believe.
My irritation is confined to my previous post in this thread. In the situation I described my intention absolutely would be to help the distraught person, and if my touch offended them my apology would be genuine; I would sincerely regret making them uncomfortable, and I would pledge not to do it again.
I definitely don’t want to be touching someone who doesn’t want it. The other person’s wishes absolutely matter; the issue at hand is whether every touch interaction needs to be preceded by explicit verbal consent, or whether I’m allowed to make some assumptions that may be changed after the fact by negative feedback (and remedied with a sincere apology).
You needn’t worry about that. That was the world I would have liked to live in, but it’s clearly not the world I do live in. I’ve never had to deal with a coworker or friend who was severely emotionally distressed, but if I ever do, I will make it a point to not invade their personal space.
There are two different questions: When is touching appropriate? and When do you know that touching is appropriate?
The answer to the first question may be easy (“When the person being touched is okay with it”), but the answer to the second may be trickier, especially to someone who isn’t familiar with the cultural context or who is bad at reading body language or something like that.