what touching is appropriate?

Why? You can’t verbally offer your condolences? The sympathy you feel can only be demonstrated by unasked for hugging?

And if your coworker asks for a hug, then hugging him/her is not inappropriate.

Again, seems so simple to me.

Taking advantage of a coworker’s grief to touch them without their consent is extremely gross. A decent person would be more aware of the need to respect someone’s wishes when they’re in a bad state, they wouldn’t use ‘oh she’s sad, therefore I can put my hands in her hair without asking her now’.

The last few weeks and 3,700,992 scandals in the news offer evidence that no knowing this is widespread.

The reason why powerful men “break the rules” and have been touching women at work inappropriately is because it apparently works. Some fraction of these women ultimately end up having sex with the men. Some women find this kind of “bad boy” rule breaking behavior sexy.

And, until recently, powerful men were immune to consequences from these actions. Sexual harassment allegations are how you get yourself fired, if you are the low ranking subordinate that makes them.

Of course, now it seems someone can have a 30 year career, be a smash hit, an exceptional success, and receive 1-2 uncorroborated accusations from a woman for something that happened possibly decades ago, and it all comes crashing down.

I don’t know what to feel about that. It bothers me that these reports are uncorroborated. People’s memories of events are notoriously faulty. I’m not saying most of these women are lying, just that events and nonverbal signals and so forth may not have gone quite like the public reports indicate.

Can you provide an actual example of that happening, or is it just baseless hyperbole?

I know it’s bothersome, but it’s not really surprising that abusive people tend to conduct their abuse where there are either no witnesses or only witnesses friendly to them.

Because we live in a nation in which adults of all political persuasions chose to act progressively more infantile and feign not understanding basic rules of social interactions such as “don’t pantomime groping a sleeping woman or use a skit as an excuse for an unwanted kiss”, “don’t proposition employees that you manage or have authoirty over”, and definitely don’t “grab them by the pussy,” just because you are in a position of power. It isn’t as if the current hurrah is about overly sensitive people complaining about incidential touching or accidentally brushing a hand on someone’s back in a crowded elevator; it is clear that the vast majority of the complaints now being voiced (mostly by women but also some men) are not only so inappropriate that they should have been followed by an immediate apology rather than a many years belated insincere “I’m sorry if I upset you,” style evasion but are in most cases a clear and persistent pattern of abusive and predatory behavior. And if you don’t know if touching is contextually appropriate or not, don’t assume; either ask, or don’t touch, period.

The incipient backlash against groping, inappropriate conduct, and abuse of authority to coerce, threaten, or force others into unwanted situaitons or sexual assault based on the petulant, “Everything is so PC we won’t even be able to shake hands without being accused of sexual assault!” is nearly as reprehensible as the acts themselves. Every child over fourteen who hasn’t grown up raised by wolves understands what inappropriate touching is, and learning to moderate one’s innate desires to, say, jerk off in front of a peer who is not a romantic partern or make crass statements about someone’s appearance and dress in public is part and parcel of being an adult grownup in polite society. The only reason it is an issue now is because there are so many people who have decided they don’t have to behave appropriately if they can get away with it, and we have collectively enabled them by making it taboo to acknowledge or discuss. And if that means that a number of senior people in entertainment, government, and corporate positions have to step down and hide out of public view because of their misbehavior, all the better as it will open up opportunities for younger people capable of behaving appropriately, and coincidentially offer the chance rectify the gender imbalance in government and industry.

Stranger

Nicely done.

Because too many jerks will try to interpret any behavior or lack of behavior by another person as nonverbal consent. Consent must be clear and it has to be completely voluntary. Sticking out a hand, spreading out their arms, etc., is the way people who lack respect for others boundaries (a warning sign of a potential rapists) try to guilt or intimidate other people into touching them.

It is appropriate if your co-worker wants to be touched for comfort. You find this out by asking, not assuming.

Why? It’s inappropriate if it makes me uncomfortable, and you didn’t bother to try to find out before you touched me. Why do I have to endure being made uncomfortable by someone’s unwanted touching? What sort of unwanted touching IS appropriate in your view?

I don’t see this “world of difference” that you are referring to. Please elaborate.

Inappropriate. Objectively.
Now, obviously there are situations when it’s not quite as inappropriate. Two situations, specifically - when quarters are cramped, and when you’ve given implied consent by entering into an official business relationship with them. The first covers shoulder bumping (not groping) in elevators and trains. The second covers aerobics instructors and drill sergeants correcting with a light touch or impromptu beating (respectively, presumably).

They fucking well knew.

I prefer no contact, very much as you described in your earlier post. Always been that way. But I also know my natural reactions are more severe than most folks’. I have adopted an attitude about it rather opposite from yours though. I’m going to be subjected to ‘normal’ touching which I can either protest or simply accept as the result of living in a touching society. I see no reason to expect many others to accommodate my comparatively unusual preference. I deal with it like a well-adjusted adult and get on with my day, usually grateful I was able to avoid eye contact. :slight_smile:

And to be clear, I’m taking about pats on the back, taps on the shoulder, hugs & handshakes from associates I’ve not seen in a while–friendly greetings that acknowledge comradeship without intimacy. Touching of the naughty bits or chest, or maintaining contact for more than a second or two, or making it otherwise more intimate than friendly is of course out of bounds.

And **begbert2: **Drill sergeant asks before touching so much as a pin on your uniform.

Our world is becoming cold & lonely.

What, you’re saying that Harvey Weinstein hired dectectives and former Israeli spies to harass, manipulate, and threaten women and journalists because he knew that assaulting and raping actresses who wanted to work on his films because he knew it was wrong? Say it isn’t so. Next, you’ll tell me that there isn’t a innocent explanation for why Bill Cosby keeps a staff of lawyers on permanent retainer to deal with abuse complaints.

Meanwhile, the Veritas Project tried to ensnare The Washington Post into reporting on a false abuse allegation only to discover that real journalists actually do basic research and fact checking to verify a claims before publishing a story that could damage someone’s reputation. So just because people coming forward to make claims of past abuse are “only allegations” and aren’t “proven in a court of law”, it doesn’t mean they’re without basis or accepted uncritically. In fact, I would imagine there is great scruitinty by journalists and employers to verify and document alleged abuse so that when they publish a story or fire a publically adored icon, they don’t have to deal with any lingering claims. When you have a virtual mountain of evidence or a multitude of independent claims purporting common patterns of behavior and details, they only practical rebuttal is for the accused to keep his mouth shut and seek a shady spot in which to hide. Or you can be like Cosby, offering seminars on how to avoid getting caught for sexual assault, which is about as credible as O.J. Simpson writing If I Did It.

Stranger

You say “friendly greetings that acknowledge comradeship without intimacy”. The OP positions the discussion as being about touching “outside of close friends and family”, so I’m not sure that friendly backslaps and uninvited hugs and handshakes are appropriately comradely gestures - since you’re not comrades.

Wait, are you implying hollywood movies aren’t documentaries?

There is no difference whatsoever.

Comrades, associates, I suppose we can open beers and discuss the nuances of synonyms. There are thousands of people whom I can call coworker, although I wouldn’t know their names without looking at their ID. Others I’ve worked with for years and am friendly with but I leave the relationship at work. Effective strangers vs. comrades. Am I not understanding the OP? Possibly. Strangers don’t get to hug unless they want a judo flip, daily coworkers who fall somewhere between strangers & close friends are endured even though their antics wig me out a bit. Don’t know where to take this. Human relationships have some black & white, and a disturbingly huge field of grey in between. I just think it makes sense to understand vast swathes of my dark grey are well within others’ light grey, and that offense is not intended in the vast majority of cases.

Sure, it’s safest and most universally respectful if everyone stays in the white. And if I may take liberties with Bosda’s observation, completely lonely and inhuman.

People obviously differ on this topic. Me, I tend to touch very little. But there ARE rare instances where I will tap someone on the shoulder. Maybe the idiot who is clueless and wearing earbuds! :wink: The only other instance I can think of at work is when I was talking with someone I knew, and I RARELY would touch their arm - somewhat as emphasis, maybe to suggest a connection.

Obviously, if I do that to pantastic or ZPG, I’m gonna get an earful. But I do not believe their view is the norm.

People communicate in all manner of ways - verbally and non. Any attempt to communicate can be misunderstood. And some folk are within their rights to have extreme reactions to communication that the vast majority of folk consider innocuous and within the ream of acceptable normal behavior.

Some woman tries to hug me - well, I find it uncomfortable, but often I’ll go along with it because it just isn’t that big of a deal (to me). But if I don’t want someone to hug me, I’m capable of telling them - even after the fact it they hugged me without warning (a rare occurance.)

BTW - I probably touch my guy friends more often than anyone women outside my immediate family. Knuckles to the upper arm. High 5. Fist bump. Maybe even a sorta shoulder or hip check. Or an arm around the shoulder. But, these are guys whom I know perceive reality and appropriate interactions similarly to me. For someone of either gender whom I don’t know, shaking hands is pretty much it.

Another situation is if you feel someone might need help. Yeah, I know this is an issue with some disabled folk. But there are some instances where a human reaction might be to touch someone in distress to comfort or assist them. Generally, your pants would stay on while doing so, and you wouldn’t grab them by the boob or butt.

I’m sociable with my coworkers but wouldn’t really call them friends - we don’t go out to drink or hang out outside of work or anything. I don’t touch my co-workers. If my back gets slapped or my shoulder gripped, I consider it improper and inappropriate, but don’t say anything because I don’t want to raise a stink, and also it seems that only the elderly owner of the company does that anyway. (I’m also a dude and a large one so there’s little concern about them scaring me.)

As for being lonely and inhuman, unwanted physical contact isn’t companionable to me. It alienates me and makes me feel more alone. If you want a warmer friend-filled world you can’t just go around slapping and grabbing people, you actually need to make the effort to build warm friendly relationships. Tough, I know.