Thank you for the reasoned discourse @Odesio. My intent was probably unclear since I was copying your quote from one thread into this one, but I was mostly asking @LSLGuy for a “no-gotcha” explanation of his remarks which I found overly dismissive, and was trying to get at his feelings, while I felt yours were reasonable even if I didn’t agree 100%.
For additional clarity, I used the term borrowing as a less weighty alternative, since I was trying to get if it was the implied criticism of the term in question that was aggravating LSLGuy, and was trying to reduce the perceived insult.
Back to what you’re saying here though, I think this is especially well done:
But it works both ways. People can borrow from another culture with full understanding and respect, this should be encouraged, as long as it’s done via sharing rather than taking ownership. People can borrow out of enthusiasm but do so in a way that runs the gamut of silly (like incorrectly translated tattoos in Japanese or Mandarin) to deeply insulting, which, well, they can have the right and I’ll have the right to judge them and bemoan their ignorance. Or they can do it to be cruel, deliberately or otherwise (often in pursuit of a “joke”).
The problem is that it’s often hard, especially online to judge which of those three huge generalizations any single person or group falls into.
And especially in our online world which sells shallow understandings and clickbait, I will always tend to assume the worse. I am not going to demand others adhere to my standards, but being casual about it isn’t going to earn any respect from me either.
As a term, “cultural appropriation” has been degraded as much as “politically incorrect” or even “woke,” although it shares more with “critical race theory” as an academic term that was seized to slander perceived offenders without giving them any recourse.
As I understand it, the term was originally applied to the colonialist mentality. No doubt there’s tons of history to support colonial powers lifting goods, and customs, and cuisines, and much else from conquered peoples. Identifying the aftereffects of colonialism is a fine academic pursuit, as long as no one omits that every major power throughout history has done this. That Britain’s food base has been improved by Indian restaurants wouldn’t get much pushback. The irony is that the curry craze was started by Bangladeshis, who have their own identity issues.
America has engaged in its own form of running rampant over earlier cultures but its history also includes the welcoming of virtually every culture on earth with the simultaneous promise of assimilating immigrants into American culture. This has had startlingly unequal outcomes, usually based on skin color, but that promise still draws millions. “Cultural appropriation” users might have a case if they were pointing this out, but they seemed to have taken the umbrage to ridiculous lengths, generating a deserved backlash. The explosion of restaurants featuring “foreign” cuisines has been immensely positive in the U.S. in my adult lifetime, and trying to cancel Americanizing the food or hiring cooks who aren’t part of the original culture is ludicrous overreach. Trying to exploit history while knowing nothing about it will draw my ire every time.
Religion is a separate issue. Nobody owns religions and unless you step out of a time machine I don’t want to hear your criticism. I place everyone who does that at the level of Muslims who declare fatwas on those drawing pictures of Mohammad. A pox on all your houses.
That’s why I went into a bit more detail on the post immediately prior, hoping to get at exactly what part of the whole equation was aggravating LSLGuy. I hope I’ve explained at least my attitudes on what I’m describing, and why I will judge more or less harshly (or not at all), for some of the actions that fall under the blanket term.
You and me both, man, you and me both. Having my 75th birthday and realizing I was now three quarters of a century old – well, that was rather daunting.
So anything that is religious to anyone is off limits to everyone else?
I have some Haida style art on the wall here, depicting an orca, which has religious significance. Does it matter that it was sold to me by an artist of First Nations descent (is that the right way to say it when referring to a Canadian)?
What about a similar piece of art I have that is of unknown provenance. It depicts “Sea Monster” by an artist named Marcy. It could have been a school project, or Marcy could be another Native artist.
I think the issue isn’t borrowing and sharing, but rather exploiting. Even this can be very hard to define. If I go to BC and buy up art to resell in galleries, at some point in profit sharing I’m a business partner with the artists, and at a different point I’m exploiting them.
I think a big issue is @DocCathode’s need to control people’s behavior when it doesn’t meet up with his notions of how it fits into his world.
The following is a prime example, probably worth a thread all on its own. A woman steps out of the hours-long queue ahead of him at the DMV to rest while waiting, and he refuses to allow her back in, despite seeing her sitting at a table nearby the entire time and knowing she was resting up. He physically blocks her from getting back in line, because somehow she didn’t know she had to clear it with him first, even though he knew exactly what she was doing and why. His excuse? “Well, I was really uncomfortable and neglected to bring a stool, and she looked healthy to me, so why should I let her back in when I was tired of standing? And besides, her husband looked well dressed.”
Exploiting yes, but it’s also a matter of showing respect for the culture. Wearing a sari or kimono because it’s beautiful is OK; wearing it as a costume because look at the funny exotic lady is not cool.
I’m still not really seeing why drinking water during a fast is offensive to anyone. Yes, it’s changing a practice that might be important to you in its original form, but respect doesn’t mean everyone must practice something exactly how you do it.
Naah. An African-American wearing a war bonnet to Coachella would be just as appropriative as a White person. Beyonce wearing a bindi is just as appropriative as Gwen Stefani.
Yes, it very much does matter. Well, PNW First Nations, at any rate, it’s a deal dodgier if it’s some Newfie Mi’kmaq artist who never set foot in Haida Gwaii.
Unknown provenance, unknown level of appropriation, doesn’t seem like a difficult concept.
In rough answer to @ParallelLines I’d say that a) I was being short and intemperate, b) @Odesio and @Exapno_Mapcase have done a real nice job of outlining my position in more balanced language.
As a 21st Century secularist I completely reject the notion of “sacred” anything. We live in a global society where everything about language and culture is free game to be used by others.
One rule: Don’t be a jerk. Which applies to both people using aspects of other cultures and people observing others using aspects of their culture.
Quick story …
A few months ago my then-GF and I attended a Jamaican music concert given by one of the big name bands in that genre. They had a special guest lead singer who’s sort of the elder statesman of the genre. These aren’t locals here, they’re based in Jamaica and tour around the world. This was in a big concert hall with a few thousand attendees.
I’m white. My GF is Afro-Caribbean but not Jamaican. For the occasion she bought herself a dress and me a matching shirt in the colors of the Jamaican flag and with some similar shapes.
When we got there we found lots of other folks wearing Jamaican colors. The crowd was clearly predominantly black, but no real way to separate the Jamaicans from the other Afro-Caribbeans from the African-Americans. At least not by eye; once anyone started talking it was pretty easy to tell who’s from where. As always here in Miami there were a bunch of Latins and whites too. And many mixed race = mixed culture couples.
This was a couple months before the election. The lead singer / guest star sprinkled commentary on Biden and trump into his patter. Lots of headshaking anti-trump comments. Which the audience generally loved. As did I.
Who was appropriating what? My clothes? My GF’s clothes? The singer’s patter?
I explicitly addressed this in the other Pit thread.
I disagree. Yet again, Kabbalah is based on certin basic assumptions. Ignoring or altering any of those assumptions show a very basic lack of understanding.
Yeah, we probably should take this to another thread.
More or les true.
Again, yeah more or less true.
Here you get a few things wrong.
I was indeed experiencing a lot of pain and having dificulty standing or walking by the time she got out of line to sit down. If she was experiencing any pain at all, or having any dificulty standing or walking- there were no signs of any kind. She did not seem to have any need to sit down. She simply wanted to sit down.
She did not check with me, or any of the people behind me in line, to be sure that she would be let back in line. This is a separate issue from whether we should have let her back in line. She assumed that, even though nobody else was leaving the line to sit down, we would let her back in. Had she asked, I and others would have communicated that if she left her place in line to sit down, she would need to go to the end of the line.
She not only didn’t ask us anything before leaving the line to sit down, she walked off so quickly I was unable to get her attention, call her back and convey any of this.
I was trying to figure out what to say and do if she tried to take her previous place after she stood back up. The two women directly behind me spoke up. Before I said or did anything, they expresed surprise at what she had done, and that they felt strongly she had given up her place in line,
When she stood up and attempted to take a place directly in front of me, she did not explain why she had left the line to sit down or even acknowledge that she had left the line to sit down. She just attempted to get me to move backwards so that she could stand in front of me. I politely said no and pointed to the back of the line. This had no effect on her behavior. She kept saying “Excuse me” and attempting to take back the place she gave up when she got out of line to sit down. I did eventually physically block her. I was not trying to be angry or threatening. She was not changing her behavior at all, and was clearly not getting the message.
After I blocked her, she finally understood that I was not going to to let her stand in front of me. She then said “Excuse me” to the pair of women directly behind me and attempted to get into line ahead of them. They were openly rude and hostile. Finally understanding that they would not let her in line ahead of them either, she went to speak to security.
Techically, I would describe him as “well dressed”. But that description is misleading. I noted his suit and shoes not because they seemed expensive. Indeed, I would not have noticed or cared if they had. I noticed them because they had flair.
As I have often said, I do not like suits or formal clothes. I have never owned any that weren’t overpriced, uncomfortable and boring. In general, I have no idea how much other people paid for suits and formal clothes, or how comfortable they are in them. I can easily see that nearly all of them are boring. I have no idea how much his suit and shoes cost. I have no reason to assume they were more expensive than the usual suit and shoes. I really could see that they pizzaz. The last time I actually saw a suit that had flair and was not boring was back in college. That was 1994 or so.
Yes, I did mention that she and her husband had smartphones. I did not mention this as a sign of wealth or even financial security. Smartphones have not been a sign of either for many years now. Right before the woman walked away to speak to the security guard, I tried using my iPhone to do something she should have tried immediately. I was attempting to use Google Translate to cross the language barrier.
I find that particular change more confusing than offensive. He chose this ritual out of all the things he could have decided to do. Why pick this ritual in partcular? I asked that a few times in the first thread and never got an answer. Why choose a ritual that involves fasting when you are medically unable to fast?
Amazing.
“She did not seem to have any need to sit down.” Its obvious that if one sits down, they have a need. People dont just sit for the fun of it. Hey, it seems like the time is right to sit!
You are not the policeman of others behavior.
Should Smapti ask your permission?
Again, by this time I was in pain. I was showing obvious signs of being in pain. I was having difficulty standing and walking. I was showing obvious signs of that as well.
She was not showing any signs of pain. She was not showing any signs of having difficulty standing or walking.
Yes, she did leave the line to sit down. Why? I cannot say. I can say for sure that, once again, I had been watching the woman in front of me for the entire time I had been in line. She was directly in front of me. Yet again, while any pain or mobility problem might not have shown when we first got in line, odds are good it would have shown by then.
Yeah, I am not.
However, the woman left the line. She had no obvious pain or mobility problems even then. She did not check to be sure I and other people behind me would let her back in.
As everybody should know by now, I am not a fan of most rules and don’t believe that they should be followed as they serve no purpose. Traffic laws are generally good rules that make life easier and save lives. The rules pertaining to lines help things get done more quickly and easily, and assure that everybody gets a fair opportunity.
At a grocery store checkout, it is entirely reasonable for a person with three items to ask the person directly ahead of them with an overflowing cart if they can change places.
If you suddenly leave the line, for no apparent reason and without checking to make sure that you wil be let back in, it is not a safe assumption that you will be let back in.
No, but it would have been nice if he showed basic understanding of Kabbalah, the tradition he was claiming the ritual was from. The basic foundations of Kabbalah are very easy to find and understand. He has shown he does not understand them. The last update I saw on the thread actually had the word Kabbalah removed from the title.
As somebody who doesn’t like rules, you sure make up a lot of your own rules that only exist in your head and then expect other people, who don’t even know these rules, to follow them. That’s not how society works.
Next time you are in a supermarket try leaving the line without saying anything to anyone to pick up that one last item and try to return to your place in line. You’ll see that that is how society works.
Perhaps you should have sat down, too. Honestly, I’m amazed that your DMV doesn’t have a 'take a number and sit over there to wait your turn" system. That’s how mine works.
People do this in my supermarket. They don’t say anything, but they leave their cart in the line, as a marker. Sometimes, they don’t get back before it’s their turn, and that’s annoying.
Yeah, leaving your cart/basket and staying in sight of it will generally be ignored but wandering away with either to no one knows where and you’ve left the line.
