“Foin?”
Don’t feel bad. Check out posts 8 and 10 over here.
Where post #9 is so small that unless one is posting on a phone, one can see post 8 while writing one’s post #10.
I also think that posting on a phone is contributing to that occurring more frequently for all of us. The Dope is a bigger body of activity than can be safely viewed through a soda straw.
As to this and other goofs, I’m sure not claiming any infallibility. As I’ve said more than once: “If you say enough stuff around here, some of it is just bound to be really stupid.”
Well, first of all Troutman has already made his mea culpa and I see no need to further belabor the point on one side or the other.
But with regard to some of your criticisms, most – or at least, many – of those posts were discussions about language, because it’s a subject that interests me. If the subject doesn’t interest you, that’s cool.
My other posts were direct responses to challenges about my personal views on language. I would have much preferred that had not happened since I wanted the thread to be an interesting discussion about language issues and not about my beliefs, but when challenged with something that wasn’t accurate, I felt I had to respond.
Then you were probably skimming and not reading in depth, because a number of posters felt otherwise. Namely they felt that the numerous iterations provided a clearer understanding of the points I had been trying to make. But again, I wasn’t comfortable with the thread going in that direction since it wasn’t what it was supposed to be about.
Reminds me of French martyrs, who have their skin souffle’d, get whipped (into a meringue), then are nailed to a croissant.
I have seen The Gingerdead Man. I have not seen The Gingerdead Man- Passion Of The Crust.
While you are here, can you stop pestering smapti. You made your point once. Get over it.
Now you have.
As I said in that thread, I objected a few times. I also commented on other Jewish topics Smapti mentioned. The thread did not derail until Hajaro basically said ‘Sure, he’s appropriating Jewish culture. But, can you stop complaining about it?’
My answer was, and remains, cultural appopriation is immoral and bad. Why would I shut up about it?
Obviously a matter of opinion, but the derailment was started when you complained repeatedly that smapti would be drinking during his fasting periods. You then turned it into a rant about cultural appropriation. I don’t think you’ll get a lot of support for the idea that Haj started it.
Yeah, I disagree that is when the derailment started. I also stand behind those posts. Yes, Jewish law requires adults who are medically able to fast several times each year. But why choose a ritual you don’t beleive in and one that requires fasting when you cannot fast?
That rant was in response to Hajaro’ post.
Well there is no reason not modify a set Kabbalah ritual other than basic tenets of Kabbalah.
Also, it’s cultural appropriation.
How should I act in this situation? I should just sit back while everybody enjoys the show?
Yeah, it is not about me. It is about the fact that the journey in question is a ritual from a religion Smapti does not belong to. It claims to be from a mystical tradition whose basic tenets he is ignoring.
None of that is relevant. It is cultural appropriation. It is immoral and wrong.
I’m sorry. Should I just sit by while cultural appropriation happens because it’s a fun time?
Many people who don’t believe go to religious services or pray. Sometimes it’s in service to expanding their beliefs and practices, while other times it’s pro forma. Some people can’t stand during a service when the rite calls for it. Should they not attend services since they can’t participate 100%?
Speaking for myself, I’d be good if you just stopped being a jerk in that thread.
I share some of your concerns with cultural appropriation. But smapti drinking during a fast for medical reasons is a pretty stupid hill to die on.
Speaking for myself, Doc…you have an either/or thinking.
There are vast grey areas about any situation.
The world is not good with black/white scenarios.
Sometimes you just have to forgive others experimental thinking and let them either come out indifferent or dedicated to pursuing this.
It’s not always cultural appropriation when someone explores a new religion or way of life.
Doc has created a dedicated Pit thread, which I appreciate and think is the best option on that issue, which is where I’ll personally be posting:
Again, that is entirely different. I addressed this twice already.
If you came out of a Jewish woman, attending services is not actually optional. It is a requirement. Performing a six month Kabbalah ritual is entirely optional- even if you are Jewish.
Smapti chose this ritual out of the multitude of things he could do from any religion or secular practice. Then, in total disregard for the Jewish mystical tradition the ritual is supposed to come from, he altered it. Then, he mentions that the ritual he chose requires fasting and he is medically unable to fast.
If he just wanted to learn about Judaism, that would be great. He is practicing a ritual claiming to be from the Jewish mystical tradition of the Kabbalah. He then disregards the basic tenets of the Kabbalah.
On preview-
ParallelLines has provided a link. I’ll see you there.
Cultural appropriation: a tiresome whine of weakling offenderati of any / every stripe.
Get over yourself.
Well, I think that’s overly dismissive, but you can feel that way.
I think @Odesio’s criticism is better:
And it’s one thing about something that’s (as in the above example) strictly limited to outer appearance, and another the closer it comes to the core identity of whatever group you’re borrowing (using a polite term) from.
As a very charged example, it’s legal for some random person to do a minstrel show in blackface. And some people could be amused, some neutral, some quietly disapproving, and some very angry. I’d probably be somewhere in between the last two, and I’m not part of the affected group. But I’d support their legal right to do so (in the USA at least) while still thinking extremely poorly of their taste, judgement and empathy for others.
No gotcha implied, but is it the term “cultural appropriation” you object to, or that it’s something applied in cases where at least there was no deliberate offense met, or just don’t think it’s anything to be concerned about at all.
Sorry, busy night.
ParallelLines has already responded and said most of what I was going to say.
I have not seen “offenderati” on the SDMB in a long time.
Would you care to explain why it is a “tiresome whine” and not a valid complaint? I can understand your use of “offenderati”.Obviously, I don’t agree with it. But I understand it. But why “weakling”?
Ultimately my objection is that it lacks both nuance and flies in the face of reality. Whether you label it appropriation or “borrowing,” unless we completely isolate ourselves from other cultures, it’s going to happen. We come into contact with another culture, see something cool, borrow it, and make it meaningful to us even if it’s devoid of whatever meaning it had to the original culture. It doesn’t just happen in the United States or even the western world, it happens everywhere.
One of the most difficult problems with the idea of cultural appropriation is one I’ve already mentioned. Who can appropriate a culture? Because it’s viewed through the lens of the oppressed and the oppressor, more often than not it boils down to white people being the appropriators. Which make some sense since most discussions I’m involved in are centered on the United States.
Way back in 2013, the song “Rude!” by Canadian group Magic! was fairly popular hitting number 1 on the charts here in the U.S. If you don’t remember the song, it has a reggae fusion sound, and on another message board I ran into some folks who were claiming cultural appropriation. This is a Canadian band, none of the members are from Jamacia, how dare they! Then someone pointed out lead singer Nasri has a Canadian-Palestinian background, and the criticism of appropriation dried up, suddenly he wasn’t white enough for it to be appropriation.
Let’s talk about Wu-Tang Clan for a minute. As we all know, Wu-Tang ain’t nothing to fuck with, but did you know they weren’t Chinese? Wu-Tang was formed by two African American New Yorkers who loved Kung-Fu movies and incorporated what they saw into their music. They even cribbed their name from a movie called Shaolin and Wu Tang. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone complain about appropriation on their part. It could be because, like I said, Wu-Tang ain’t nothing to fuck with, but I suspect it’s because it’s not appropriation unless the person doing the borrowing is white.
I’m not denouncing Wu-Tang here, because as was mentioned earlier, Wu-Tang ain’t nothing to fuck with, but it calls into question of what appropriation is when some can do it and others seemingly cannot. If appropriation is based on who the dominant group is then it isn’t about respecting others or avoiding offense, is it?
Proponents of cultural appropriation often fail to take into account cultural sharing. The Hong Kong filmmakers who helped distribute the Kung-Fu movies in the United States, the ones that influenced RZA and Ghost Face Killa to create Wu-Tang Clan, were engaged in a form of cultural sharing. Granted their desire to share was likely driving by the capitalist urge to find more markets and make more money, but it’s still sharing. Even though I never formed a rap group, I too loved those Kung-Fu movies growing up and they certainly had an influence on me. Remember when ninjas and Kung-Fu blew up in the 70s and early 80s? It’d be a sad day if we couldn’t enjoy fine movies like American Ninja or the hit television show The Master.
And this happens elsewhere. I was watching a news program more than 25 years ago about a group of Japanese salarymen who were really into the the television show Rawhide. Once a week these men would get together in a bar, some of them dressed as cowboys, and watch the adventures of Gil Favor, Rowdy Yates, and Wishbone and they drove that herd to Kansas or wherever the hell they were going. Should I get upset they were dressing up as cowboys? My culture is not their costume! No. Our culture was shared with them freely, again, driven by capitalist desire to tap new markets, but it’s still sharing.
Another problem with appropriation is that it’s difficult to clearly draw the lines between cultures in our pluralistic society. I’m not Black, I’m not steeped in Black culture, but Black culture has certainly had a big influence on our shared culture at large. Should I stop listening to rock music because it was appropriated? Can I use the word woke without it being appropriation? It’s hard to tell where the lines are sometimes. They seem arbitrary oftentimes.
Like I said originally, I think some of this originates out of a genuine desire to be respectful of other people. But it so often manifests itself in such stupid, harmful ways. It’s downright conservative in how they don’t want us to mix it up with other races or nationalities.
I realize that a lot of sharing and blending goes on. If you live in NYC, odds are very good you routinely use some Yiddish words and know where to get a really good bagel. I don’t have a problem with that. A lot of Japanese pop culture is wildly popular in America now. I don’t have a problem with that either. The American Godzilla movie with Mathew Broderick was awful of every conceivable level. Shin Gojira (IIRC it was also retitled as Godzilla Resurgence here) was fantastic! Anything made by Miyaziaki or Studio Ghibli is something I want to see.
Gwen Stefani used to have a 1940’s hairdo and wear a bindi. Victory Rolls and the rest were American. If you want to try to revive the style, okay. Bindis are specifically Hindu and have religious signifance. Different bindis mean different things. IIRC Gwen was never a Hindu and just wore bindis because they looked cool. I do have a problem with this.