I don’t – that’s my point. Why continue to discuss this when you have no interest in doing anything but finding me a contemptible bitch?
Because you’re bitching and complaining about how we still won’t listen to you. Did you see the part where I said I was trying to see things from your view? You say there wasn’t ‘a fucking thing you could say that would penetrate my mind’? You never fucking SAID it to begin with.
Does that penetrate YOUR mind?
Ava
Damn slow board, tee hee!
I pit thee, LOVE!!
You suck!
Love hurrrrrrts…
Boy do I hate that song but love DOES hurt sniff.
Good god Shayna, were you the bride? I’m starting to wonder, you seem oddly passionate about this.
And for the record, just because someone disagrees with you, doesn’t mean they don’t understand you. There’s no need for the heavy sighs and “I guess I’ll explain this again” It is possible for someone to understand where you’re coming from and simply disagree.
Canvas has given no indication that she didn’t understand what you were saying, she merely disagrees, as do I and some others. That does not make her, nor myself, nor any of the others who have disagreed “blockheads” or “willfully ignorant.”
How unbelievably arrogant.
I agree with lezlers and Canvas Shoes. This is a way-over-the-top reaction, Shayna. Take a deep breath. Twickster behaved completely appropriately at that party, and I have no doubt that deep in her heart, she wishes her friend every happiness, despite the fact that the friend had (a rather peculiar) desperate agenda to marry and have kids.
As far as I’m concerned, that’s the bottom line–that twickster behaved completely appropriately at the wedding, and unless twickster contradicts me, I assume that twickster wishes her friend the best. (You don’t secretly wish that your friend’s marriage crash and burn, do you twickster? I didn’t think so. ;))
My gosh. It isn’t as if she kicked someone’s puppy or something.
Oh, the stories I could tell from my days working at a bridal salon.
I actually had brides tell me why they were marrying their fiances. You do NOT want to get trapped in a dressing room by a bride, let alone a bride who’s really proud of herself for landing someone with money. The things people will tell perfect strangers! Yipes.
twickster, let’s just hope your friends’ urgency didn’t blind them to the realities of marriage. I can’t imagine marrying someone I didn’t love deeply (it would end in homicide for someone, I’m sure), so I definitely hope they didn’t choose to do so!
Julie
What are you people talking about? There’s nothing over-the-top about the fact that I think it’s perfectly disgusting to play nice-nice-kiss-kiss to people’s faces and then turn around and say nasty things about them behind their backs. If you really don’t find anything wrong with that behavior, then I don’t know what to say.
Interestingly enough, not one single person has even attempted to explain what is so friggin’ bad about people who have a strong desire to marry and have a family and seeking out like-minded people to share their lives with. I’d be happy to chalk it up to “agreeing to disagree” if anyone would even venture an answer. But so far, there’s nothing to either agree or disagree with because all I know is that twickster “doesn’t get it.” How does one agree or disagree with that?
I certainly “get” that people find it appalling when women trick men into marriage because they want a baby by a certain time or because they have money or any number of other reasons. And on that I do completely agree! But the OPer didn’t make any kind of case in the original rant that there was any factual basis to assume the bride doesn’t also love this man very much, let alone that the husband wasn’t fully aware of his bride’s motivation. And as a matter of fact, she has since admitted that the groom was fully aware of his bride’s desire and shares the same.
I am as entitled to express my disgust with the pettiness of the OP (however passionately I please), as the OPer is to post it in the first place. And I don’t have to have been this bride – I’ve been a bride, and if any one of my friends were this nasty about how I hosted my wedding and called my husband a “sperm donor,” making disparaging remarks about his dating history behind my back, you can bet your ass that’d be the last time I’d ever be a guest in their home for dinner and vice-versa.
Don’t like how strongly I feel about backstabbing “friends”? Oh well. On that we can certainly agree to disagree.
Because no one has addressed that scenario. What we were discussing was that this bride was SO desparate for kids (that tolling tolling bio-clock) that that was her FIRST consideration in choosing to marry. That doesn’t mean we don’t wish her and her husband luck and good wishes (they might need it).
And no one has said that it’s “so horrible,” or “so bad”. It’s just a bit mercenary on a woman’s part to seek out a baby maker as her primary reason for having a relationship. And it’s just something that we happen to disagree with as a primary reason to seek out and start a relationship.
Well, several people throughout this thread HAVE tried to explain it to you. Clearly, and in several different “speaking” styles. But you’re more interested in being profane and hostile than in realizing that it’s an “agree to disagree” scenario.
You know, that’s exactly what I was thinking. Shayna has a lot of vitriol built up over this topic. She’s obviously got some sort of personal connection here.
Look, not everyone is going to be excited seeing people be wasteful with money. A lot of people, like me, the po’ college student, have absolutely no money and enviously watch something that would make their lives a whole lot easier be washed down the drain. I went to the hugest wedding not too long ago. I bet it cost fifty thousand dollars. Maybe more.
My entire stint at law school could almost be covered by that amount, that was thrown away on nothing! A day’s feasting and dancing and celebrating.
You can choose to argue with me over whether it was nothing or not. But I spent less than $2,000 on mine, and my father was willing to spend a lot more. I wouldn’t have done that to my wonderful father. I’m not that selfish!
I don’t really mind that they spent the money, except for being a little envious.
You can disbelieve that, I don’t care.
I knew, however, that the bride and groom genuinely loved one another. There are very few couples I have seen getting married that suit one another so well. I am generally spot-on about the people who are going to get divorced, and I doubt these people will. I thought their wedding was lovely and I celebrated with them whole-heartedly.
If, however, I had thought they didn’t love one another, that they were getting together for any other reason – children, sex, whatever – I would have nothing but contempt for the waste of money. I would probably got on the internet, where I could be anonymous and say whatever the hell I wanted, and ask others if they felt the same way.
twickster is entirely justified in feeling the way she does.
I guess I just don’t see how twickster’s OP is “backstabbing” anyone, unless you would claim that any complaint/negative comment about a friend is backstabbing?
She had two comments:
-
Her friend appeared to her to be fairly mercenary, and
-
Oy! All that money! Oy!
Number two is certainly a matter of opinion. Personally, I am bewildered when people spend that much money, though I really don’t care. Being at such a wedding is oppressive to me, though.
As for the first, she knows her friend better than I do, and even if she’s just talking about a bad vibe she has gotten, what’s wrong with talking about a bad vibe?
I went to a wedding ten or so years ago. It was a small affair, but very odd and strident to my staid Catholic sensibilities. The service and the reception embarrassed and bothered me. And I had my doubts about the marriage because both parties were so young and immature (it lasted less than a month, which I think should require them giving my gift back, dammit). Would I have been justified in coming to a board like this and talking about those bad vibes? I think so, even though the bride was my friend and she certainly hadn’t done anything to harm me.
This forum allows us to vent about things, big or little, that can be hard to discuss with anyone in person. Having a sense of unease about a marriage seems very appropriate for discussion, no matter how close the friendships are.
Julie
that horse isn’t quite dead yet, ya know.
we know that her ‘primary reason’ for having a relationship is the strong desire to have a baby, how???
the OP states (finally) that they’ve known her ‘well’ for a couple of years and that she has a strong urge to have children. well, we know, from Cousin Vinny that those biological clocks can be ticking indeed, and that it can be a very strong urge.
what we don’t know is that this is the ‘primary reason’ for her relationship/getting married. the OP seems to believe that the couple do indeed care about each other, right? so, unless the friend told her in so many words “the main reason I’m getting married is 'cause I need a sperm donor”, why on earth does anyone assume that is the ‘primary reason’, that it isn’t the love that many folks feel, when finding a person they wish to share their lives with, have children with?
seems to me folks are getting quite cynical, based on the fact this woman wants to have children (and that perhaps, feels that time is running out).
Ah, I see. You’ve never said anything negative about anyone you’re nice to. You tell everyone you know exactly what you think of them, even if it will hurt them. Every fault in them, they are made aware of, by you. Who sounds like the crueler person now? And I failed to see how anything in twicksters rant was nasty. It wasn’t as if she was calling her friend a whoring bitch.
Oh, stop with the dramatics. “Won’t someone, anyone pleaaaassseee explain to me??!!”
You seem to be the only one in this thread who’s looking at it as “people having a strong desire to marry and have a family and seeking out like-minded people to share their lives with.” That’s quite the positive spin you’re putting on the situation. Everyone else is looking at it (from what I can tell) as someone actively looking for a potential daddy to marry b/c they want to have kids and only marrying that person to have said kids. The OP gave no indication that this woman who wanted kids just happened to meet this man who wanted kids and they fell madly in love. The OP gave the indication that the woman married the man because she wanted kids. That being the predominate reason for the marriage. That is what people seem to be taking issue with. I take issue to that myself. If you don’t, then we can agree to disagree. Seems to me like we’re looking at two different situations though.
See my comments above.
Oh, for heavens sake. Are you trying to justify a marriage for convienence’s sake to yourself or something? That’s the only thing that can explain your viritrol towards the OP. You seem to be the only one taking this much of an issue to it.
CanvasShoes, in her first 2 paragraphs twickster describes the opulent party (elegant appetizers, open bar, etc.), admits to not being happy to be there (“all 150 of us happy revelers. (Well, 149 happy revelers and yours truly – )”), complains of being snubbed, complains about how loud the music was, and talks down about a tablemate who she characterizes as “traumatized.”
Paragraphs 3 and 4 disparage the bride by claiming that she was only dating for the purpose of finding a baby-maker (though there is no evidence presented for this assumption), ridiculing the groom for having not started dating until his 30s, insulting the bride and groom’s appearance (“the bride stuffed into her white gown and the groom and best man wearing fucking tail coats”), as well as insulting the rituals and good-wishes of both families, followed by this gem, “What is this crap? He’s just the fucking sperm donor.”
That’s it. That’s all we have to go on from the OP about how “this bride was SO desparate for kids.” We have no evidence whatsoever that that was her “FIRSTconsideration in choosing to marry.” None. Nor do we know that that’s ultimately the reason she chose this man to be her life partner. And there’s certainly no evidence that she doesn’t love him. None.
Lots of people came in and wondered what she was complaining about and why it mattered to her how much money the bride (and/or bride and groom and/or the bride’s family, or both families combined - we don’t know) spent on the wedding. She never did say. All we could get was “There are two things that I don’t get: one is “omigod, it’s time to get married, I better find someone to pair off with” – and the other is spending tens of thousands of dollars on a fancy party.”
So I asked what the hell was wrong with the fact that some people have a very strong desire to have a partner to share their lives with, so they work towards the goal of finding someone who has the same desire, and what’s her damage if they spend their money the way they want to. Not only did I not get a direct answer, what she said was completely off point, stating her “understanding” that I didn’t think she had a right to an opinion about the marriage (which I never said or implied) and asked me what my harm was.
By page 2, there was still no answer to either avabeth or myself to our direct questions, so avabeth asked again… “Do you have anything to back up the statement that the groom is nothing more than a sperm donor? Has the bride stated this to you? Has she said that she doesn’t love him directly to you? Do you have anything to go on other than the best man’s toast and the fact that she met the groom online? I just think you’ve made a major assumption that you can’t back up. I really am trying to see things from your POV, but I see nothing to back up your point.”
After Bricker politely inquires as to how it is that she arrogates to herself the right to comment on their marriage, but is stunned and surprised when others wish to comment on her comments, she repeats the erroneous claim that I said she didn’t have a “right” to express an opinion and still offers no direct reply to any of the on-point questions that both avabeth and I have asked. So I repeat them. Halfway down page 2, wring still doesn’t see an answer, either.
You and I go back and forth about how anyone can possibly know what the bride’s true motivations are and whether the groom was unwitting and worthy of pity or not, and we’re still without an answer as to why this bride should be considered “sneaky,” “horrible,” and a huntress in a hurry to find a guy to marry. You still seem to be unclear as to the fact that I’m not “hurt” by this rant because you ask me how it’s hurting me again, which was asked and answered. Is it any wonder that I did not believe you actually understood what I was saying when I said it quite clearly, yet you persist in accusations that are unfounded?
Finally, about 2/3 of the way down page 2, we have the admission by twickster that she’s never discussed this with the groom, and that the bride has been forthright with him about her desire to have children sooner rather than later. He apparently has no problem with this goal, as he’s asked her to be his wife. She then reiterates, for like the 4th time, her lack of understanding about people marrying because of their feeling of urgency about having kids.
I want to pound my head against a wall in frustration. My questions still aren’t answered. Why is the desire to have children a bad reason to want to get married? So long as the person wanting to do so seeks out a man who she actually loves in order to fulfill that desire, how is that a bad thing? I’d imagine a LOT of people want to get married so they can have a family. What’s wrong with that?
I think that brings us up to speed, and yet, I STILL DON’T KNOW why wanting children (even urgently) and actively looking for a man who wants the same is such a bad thing. And I still don’t know how twickster came to the conclusion that the vows of love this woman took were nothing but “crap.” So yeah, based on that, I still take issue with her whole petty, snotty attitude about this “conspicuous display” and the horror she had to endure sitting through loud music with geeky and boorish people, eating free food and drinking unlimited free booze, while watching the overstuffed bride and her “sperm donor” and their families welcome each other. Oh the humanity! :rolleyes:
It isn’t a courtroom. Someone was sharing her feelings, which are hers whether they are justified or not. You will never know, CAN NEVER KNOW, if she’s right about her friend. Why are you expecting her to prove she’s right? How in the world could she?
This is what I find bizarre. Why? Why do you care that much? Someone said “my friend is doing X and it bothered me.” You come back with “prove it! Prove it and it’s not bad anyway but prove it and you’re a backstabber!”
She can’t prove it. She has a feeling. Even if the marriage collapses (and no one hopes it does), there’s no proof. Emotions can’t be proved.
Julie
She (twickster) knows the bride. You don’t. Twickster may be mistaken about the “sperm donor” comment (and I do hope that this couple is happy) but twickster found the timing interesting. She posted her comments about the marriage, and her suspicions about the underlying motivations behind it, here in the Pit. Big whoop.
I absolutely did not find the mere mention of the fact that the groom started dating in his 30s to be “ridicule.” It was a statement of fact. The implication I took from that fact (and maybe this is just me) was that the groom was kinda shy. Big whoop.
I did not take this as particularly nasty either. Twickster’s writing style was quirky all the way through this rant. Quirky, but not particulary nasty. I feel that all coat tails are “fucking coat tails” as well, thank you very much. Doesn’t matter if George Clooney or Tyrone Power is wearing them.
And as far as being “stuffed” in a wedding dress–most brides are. Wedding dresses seem to be something that one gets “stuffed” into, as they often are quite fitted and may have boning, etc. Which is why the fit often has to be “just so” and multiple fittings are required at the dressmakers. I rarely see a loosely-fitting wedding dress.
Big whoop.
I saw it as sarcasm more than nastiness. So she suspects that the urgency of this wedding was, in part, for the bride to have kids. And she got this impression, repeatedly, so it seems, from the bride herself.
Now, usually I am on the side of honesty and I don’t like the idea of “backstabbing,” but I think this is a pretty harmless version of it. For one thing, there is NO good that can come from twickster expressing her somewhat cynical feelings about this marriage now. NO GOOD can come from it. You keep your feelings to yourself about such matters, and if you must, you post them on an anonymous message board, where you can vent freely.
It would be one thing if, by twickster telling her friend how she felt about the “sperm donor” angle, that twickster could help change some circumstances with the friend or impact the friend in some way. But if the friend has the mindset that her biological clock is ticking, so better rush, rush, rush to get a guy, what can twickster say or contribute to this?
I see “backstabbing” as more like “She doesn’t realize how horrible she looks in that green dress. But I wasn’t about to tell her.” Now, to me, that’s mean. Maybe if you’d tell your friend before she wore the damned green dress that she looked like crap in it, she’d wear something else. But to say nothing and then enjoy the embarrassment of the friend in the ugly green dress is snarky. But I doubt this is how it happened in twickster’s case. The bride probably has a clue that twickster isn’t of the mindset that you gotta rush, rush, rush to get a hubby so you can pop out kids. But the bride does think this way. So what more is there for twickster to say? She won’t change the bride’s mind, and she won’t rain on the bride’s parade–this is what the bride wants. But twickster still has her views, and she vented them here.
Big whoop.
Hmmmmmmmm, sounds like a PIT rant to me. Imagine that. Someone exaggerating their annoying experience.
[qupte]That’s it. That’s all we have to go on from the OP about how “this bride was SO desparate for kids.”
[/quote]
Well, you must not have read far enough into her OP to have read the part (paraphrased, sorry Twickster) that said “her biological clock wasn’t just ticking, it was tolling with a deep desperate sound that could be heard three counties (or was it countries?) over…….”. To me, that amusing turn of phrase not only described someone pretty obsessed with hurrying up and having kids, but that she’d gotten to know this person well enough to KNOW that her biological clock was booming out a frantic call. That’s something you need to know the person a little bit more than “a comment two years ago” for.
And the OP did in fact come in and confirm just that. But some of us had already figured that part out by her OP.
I think we have all, by this point agreed with that. That is that we don’t have any way of knowing, either WAY what is truly going on with them. The OP took the viewpoint that it was the “sperm donor/not true love” version.
And again, it was a rant, likely brought on by a combination of a stressful night filled with snobbish strangers and so on. But then, since you’re a perfect angel in all ways and would never be mean to anyone either in front of or behind their back, I’m sure that will cut no ice with you.
We already addressed all the “who has a right to complain about whats”.
So long as the person wanting to do so seeks out a man who she actually loves in order to fulfill that desire, how is that a bad thing? I’d imagine a LOT of people want to get married so they can have a family. What’s wrong with that?
[/quote]
Interesting. See, now you’re all up in arms because you claim that we, without proof positive are “accusing” this woman of marrying without loving this guy. But yet here you are, assuming that it’s love sweet love, with absolutely no proof of your own. It could be one, it could be the other. The OP was leaning toward it being “sperm donor” based on her knowledge of the woman. Some of us believed that she knew what she was talking about. Some of you didn’t.
Again, a matter of opinion. Not evil.
None of us have addressed two people who have the same goals of the white picket fence and kids meeting and falling in love. And you seem to be trying to kind of pretend that we have been.
We’ve very clearly stated that our disagreement is with the baby obsessed late 20something woman who goes looking primarily to find a dad for her babies that she MUST have, without much consideration of who he is other than that he’s reasonably nice, and can provide.
That you didn’t glean that from our numerous posts is through your not reading our entire posts, as is evidenced from you leaving out some crucial lines from the OP, and only including the ones you felt were most damning to the OP, not through our failing to state it.
Once again, no one has SAID it was “bad”. And once again……asked and answered above, and again, I’m sure that if you want each of us to share our personal reasons, we’d be happy to bore you with them, otherwise, please see above where you asked the same question, and I answered it.
quote:
Originally posted by CanvasShoes
It’s just a bit mercenary on a woman’s part to seek out a baby maker as her primary reason for having a relationship. .
Do please read the sentence again.
No, wait, I’ll help you.
I said (well I said “I feel” before you snipped this little sentence, but oh well).
" it’s a bit mercenary on **a[/q] woman’s part to seek out a baby maker as her primary reason for having a relationship".
A woman, wring. Not the woman who is the subject of the OP. A woman. meaning that IF a woman does this.
And the sentence very clearly describes a woman who IS doing that. In other words, a woman who does this, that is seeks out a baby maker as her primary reason for a relationship, is IMHO, a bit mercenary.
What Canvas and Yosemitebabe said.
Again I ask: is there some sense that posting a rant in the Pit entitles the poster to a free pass, or to only have positive, rant-supporting comments offered by readers of the rant?
It ain’t so.
An OP might say: My stupid brother-in-law is so stupid! He earns $95,000 per year and he makes four trips per year from NYC to Atlantic City, and he sees three or four Broadway shows at full price! I can’t stand that he makes that much money and then wastes it on gambling and shows!.
A poster, in response, might observe, “What business is it of yours, OP, how he spends his money?”
The OP cannot meaningfully respond What business is it of yours how I feel about my brother-in-law’s spending habits? It’s my opinion, and anyway, it’s just a rant!
The two situations are different. By posting on this board, in any of its fora, a poster implicitly invites responses. If the subject is a rant, then the Pit is certainly the proper venue for the post, but that doesn’t somehow insulate it from negative feedback. Indeed, the act of posting invites feedback.
This is the key difference, in my example, between the two instances of “What business is it of yours?” The OP in my example has no business dictating how someone else spends his salary. But the posters on this board have business responding to commentary on this board, be it rant or reasoned debate.
- Rick