It’s not JUST that it’s irrelevant to a professional setting. It’s irrelevant to a professional setting, AND women have a long history of being judged as suitable or unsuitable for jobs based on physical attractiveness, AND having her successes attributed to her physical attractiveness and not to her abilities, AND a number of other factors. Trying to pull out “irrelevant in a professional setting” and then strawmanning the shit out of it doesn’t do you any favors when clearly it’s a contextual issue based on a long history of women’s treatment in the workplace.
Which, if you’ve read my posts, I’ve clearly agreed with the idea that the issue a contextual one and that such is justified. Irrelevant to the professional setting is however immaterial; lots of things are and are appropriate to comment on, especially about a friend. The item that matters is the historic context and in that sense it does not matter if the person being introduced is insulted or flattered, whether they like it or not they represent. They are not just an individual.
But the fact that it’s unnecessary in a professional setting is not irrelevant. If someone were arguing that as the entire reason the comment was unnecessary, then maybe you’d be making some useful point. However, to try and compare it to discussing someone’s hobbies just makes it sound like you’re intentionally ignoring the additional components of why it’s problematic for the purpose of one pedantic exercise.
At least a couple of people appear to have been making such a claim, so Dseid is making a useful point:
I bet if you asked those people, “not relevant to work” is not the ONLY reason the comment is inappropriate. And those quotes don’t support the assertion that it is.
But whatever, this is a dumb tangent.
Thank you. I will be careful with it.
Sure. Almost none of the RO is coming from the Right.
Regards,
Shodan
Giving it some more thought, one of my problems with the “pretty” thing is that is also feeds into a prevalent and IMO dangerous loop I’ve noticed with my female friends. I recently, on a lark, did a quick survey of all my friends’ Facebook profile pictures, throwing out the ones who didn’t have a picture of themselves. Every woman except one or two was flooded with “you’re so pretty!” comments (mostly by other women and the occasional significant other). Regardless of race, class, or whether they were conventionally beautiful. And those that weren’t generally had other pictures with the comments. Of my male friends and myself, only a couple had comments on how they looked good, and they were all bodybuilder types posing shirtless (only exception being my profile pic, which I only barely count because somebody said they liked my haircut). Now, my Facebook friends list isn’t statistically significant, and primarily made up of college kids and recent grads which certainly influences the results, but it confirms what I’ve heard from others, so I think it holds up fairly well in general.
The thing is, there’s a really dangerous game at play here. On one hand, several of my female friends would agree that society is too focused on looks and that they’d rather they be respected for their minds, and that they’d like if everyone stopped with all the comments on their looks. But, really, what would happen if one day these women suddenly stopped receiving the complements? Obviously I can’t predict for sure, but I imagine that a lot of them would feel kind of shitty unless they themselves were the ones who personally asked everyone to no longer do it (and even then, I’ve certainly asked people not to do things and irrationally felt bad when they listened to me). I’m not saying they’d seppuku on the spot or drop into a deep depression, just that twinge of “what’s going on? Am I not pretty anymore? Did I offend everyone with something I said?”
Say what you like, but having comments on looks being common or the norm in the political or professional field doesn’t do anybody any favors. It only adds to potential body image issues. It can really add to insecurities if somebody doesn’t complement your looks. This isn’t purely conjecture, I’m a member of Women in Computer Science, I talk to plenty of women in STEM fields and this is a common observation they make. If you make a comment about their looks, that’s not ideal, but they admit that it feels kind of wrong and they still have that twinge of self-doubt when somebody sings their praises without using words like “lovely” or “beautiful.”
It’s a difficult situation. Overall, I think it’s better to “rip the band-aid off” so to speak. It’s better to have that mild discomfort now, because once the complements stop being the norm it will stop being uncomfortable because it’s no longer expected.
Again, once it’s no longer expected or common, fire away! There’s nothing inherently wrong with making the comment. It’s just that it’s damaging when it’s the norm and there’s history behind the comment that makes it suspect.
You mean a factor like competency?
But about the only way to make such comments “no longer expected or common” is to make them such a taboo that you’ll virtually never see men make them under any circumstances. You’re up against human nature, and it takes a very intensive campaign of psychological pressure to overcome that to any extent; you’ll probably have to convince men from childhood that complimenting women is some hugely shameful act, and that they are bad people for wanting to do so.
I expect the end result of such a campaign will be men who constantly feel guilty and unable to express themselves, and women who are unhappy because they can’t get compliments from men no matter how much they want it. You’ll also likely end up creating the general impression among women that female beauty and the desire of women to look pretty is sinful as well. We already seem to be heading that way in fact.
I can’t believe I’m actually in total 100% agreement with Der Trihs on an issue relating to men/women issues. Normally I think he’s way over the top and way too sensitive about men’s rights and such but on this one he’s absolutely right.
Flipping your lid, or even just casually saying that it’s not “ideal” or not right for a friend to comment on another friend’s good looks during some public speech really seems to be a dangerous thing.
I’m all with you guys, if in a professional setting, you don’t want your boss or your coworkers praising you on your looks. I understand why that might not be the ideal situation.
But if a friend is giving a speech about you, about how great of a person you are, and how well you do your job, I don’t see any reason why it should be offensive that they also praise you on how good you look.
By insisting that not even friends or people who know you well outside of your professional work setting be allowed to comment on your physical appearance, you’re setting up a mentality that it’s dangerous or wrong to ever comment on another person’s physical appearance.
I’m not a woman though. I’m a gay man. My perspective on life and gender roles and women’s rights and such will never be the same as a woman’s. But I really feel like I’ve tried very hard my whole life to be sensitive to everyone’s issues, even if they don’t directly affect me, and I don’t think you’d find a stronger crusader for women’s rights and issues than me.
But in this instance, the instance of a friend commenting on another friend’s appearance in a public setting as a form of praise heaped upon other more professional praise, I don’t see anything wrong with it. And I think it’s frankly dangerous to keep insisting that it is wrong, or not ideal, or whatever. Friends should be able to make these kinds of comments, and people should be happy to receive them.
There are many categories at the Oscars other than those for thespians. Women are nominated and win in those, as well.
Also, the Oscars are a meaningless gimmick. Don’t film festival awards mean much more, if one cares about film? Anyway, I’m off-topic.
At least as the AG anyway…
He was probably hoping to hit it later.
You have the soul of a Floridian. Cherish it always, but please keep it away from me.
The problem was that Eric Holder was standing, like, right there…
I have never commented on a purely physical attribute of anyone unless we were romantically involved or in a situation where such a comment might be expected (for example, as a kid, I’d bring my mom flowers and say that she’s the prettiest woman in the world.). If I compliment someone, it’s on a quality that demonstrates skill or aptitude on their part and personally, I don’t really take notice of compliments paid me that are purely a genetic happenstance. I was neither consulted nor involved in the qualities of my hair, the color of my eyes, the structure of my cheekbones or the symmetricality of my face. Compliment the manner in which I boost the good attributes and minimize the bad ones, if you must, but not the attributes themselves.
Maybe that was Obama’s way of telling him to lose the 'stash.
This. Its kind of depressing to see so many people willfully ignore this…she should just be complimented that someone called her pretty right?
That a friend called her pretty, in the process of generally complimenting her? Yes.
This isn’t about her taking offense in the first place. This is about total strangers who are willing to “take offense” in her name and against her will, who are willing to poison her friendship in the name of their political agenda. It’s the people “taking offense” who are the offensive and abusive ones here in my opinion. They are the ones victimizing her. If she’s angry with anyone, I’m pretty sure it’s with them not Obama.
Her friend, in a private fund raiser event, sang her professional praises and then as a lighthearted cap called her good looking to boot. There is no indication from her that she was at all offended. Making this about what she should be or should not be is as immaterial as making this about whether or not the comment is out of line because it does not have to do with her job. Her response, or it seems lack of one, is irrelevant and even if her honest reaction was to smile or laugh at the comment it does not matter.
The issue is and is only that a “private” fund raising event is not really private: it is public sphere and she and how she is introduced represents. And those she represents have good reason to beware of being overjudged by how pretty or not they are, to a greater degree than are males. The lighthearted bit part can be about looks for males but at this point in time we are not yet far enough along that it can be about looks for females.
Der Trihs, that is not victimizing her. That is what she signed up for by going into the business she is in. She may not care, but I am sure that both she and Obama recognize that the public sphere deserved him apologizing to her. As their representative.