Before this turns into a SAHM vs working mother, I am just going to through out the old cliché.
It’s not the quantity of time spent with your children, it’s the quality.
Staying home with your kids does not insure you are a good parent nor does working outside the home make you a bad parent.
Aside from the parenting, I continue to feel that it is pretty damn scary to put your financial dependency on another person. How many SAHP have a back up plan if for one reason or another they find themselves suddenly alone and have to support themselves?
Oh, I’m not saying no respect is deserved. But you couldn’t honestly say that every SAHP works just as hard as their spouse, especially when the kids are of school age. Hell, my Mum was a SAHP, the difference being she was a single mum and worked from home.
But, that wasn’t my issue. My issue was specifically this line from Zabali:
which I think is utter rubbish, and makes no sense, so I was asking for clarification.
I do understand about resources. I was only talking about the bad rap ANY parent gets when they choose to SAH. If it’s too difficult financially, the family has a choice. And it’s not an easy one to make.
Personally, I’d love to work but I can’t right at this time and I accept it. I consider myself lucky in one way only; I get to see my angel grow up and play a big part in her development (it’s a huge thing). I go without various things because I’m also a single parent and kiddo comes first (no, not asking for applause here) but I’m happy to be with my pumpkin pie every day. Sometimes I wish I had a spouse willing to SAH or work but I don’t. My ex-hubby is Satan himself and I’m overjoyed he’s out of our lives. My main point is that raising a child is as valuable and important as any other job/career out there and for the nay-sayers to shut the hell up. They have no clue, IMHO. SAHDs rock and I’m hoping they get their fair share of support as the womenfolk who do it.
dragongirl’s hubby is a complete moron and probably won’t grow up. I’m hoping she gets some decent breaks so that she can take her kids and get out. He’s no role model for them and she isn’t either… right now anyway. They’re seeing that it’s ok to stomp on another human being’s feelings and be abusive. I truly wish the best for her and her “babies”.
You didn’t, that was my response to what seemed to be your implication, that unless both parents work, the kids would somehow end up in substandard living conditions, resulting in??..
That is why I added the “suffereing severe mental damage” because I was wondering semi sarcastically what it is that people think is the result of kids growing up poor. Sorry, it wasn’t a slam against you. But I do disagree that making sacrifices so that one parent can stay home, (even if that means until they are old enough to “care for themselves”), means that the family is suddenly “living in substandard conditions”.
Also I wanted to point out that many people live in substandard or poverty conditions as children regardless of the circumstances of the parents. In other words, as I said in my previous post, both parents can work and the home can STILL be in “substandard living conditions”. Particularly if they’re working minimum wage jobs and trying to pay daycare, fuel, lunch and wardrobe costs for two.
He does have a right to an opinion on it. But he also has to use some intelligence about it. It doesn’t sound like he is. It’s just plain math that Dragongirl going to work will likely COST them money at this point.
I believe that what a few other posters have mentioned here (his being so gutless as to listen to his coworkers instead of his common sense) is more his problem than actually needing her to work.
If it were really the money, then he would be willing to renegotiate their original agreement, and it’s clear from what the OP has continued to update us on, that he’s not.
He refuses to start chipping in and helping with the housework, errands, billpaying and child raising if she goes to work.
He refuses to adjust his schedule so that she can work. He refuses to discuss it or even to go to counseling. He’s not committed to this marriage. They’re HIS kids too, it’s not just her responsibility to figure out what to do with them and make sure theyre cared for if she does have to join the work force.
At any rate my beef was not with a legitimate need for the SAHP to go to work, my beef was with the attitude that it was somehow harmful or selfish, or that the SAHP would be able to be “lazier” or something ionce the kids reached a certain (unamed) magical age. As in, well your kids are in school now, go back to work you lazy bum.
I haven’t seen anyone in this thread say that working outside the home moms are substandard. Supporting a person’s right to be a SAHP is not then equal to saying that working parents arent’ “good enough” or something.
I’ve done both. Each has its challenges, and its rewards. BOTH sides have the right to be considered valid, viable choices, and no one has a right to “dis” another’s choice because THEY think that the parent in question “should” be doing the other thing.
I watched a Dr. Phil once, he had half the audience made up of working moms and half the audience made up of SAHMs, HOLEEEE Cow. They should have sent those women to Iraq after that hour of Doc P. It all would have been over, and Saddam would have done the honorable thing and offed himself rather than face those women.
dragongirlmentioned it in her OP. I dont’ know if dragonjerk was the one who suggested it to her or not. I think the way she phrased it was something like “and I don’t think my kids are old enough to leave here alone while I work I live 27 miles out in the country”.
I got the impression that he’d possibly suggested it to her, or someone had.’
Anyway, the rest of us picked up on it and said basically, “quite right, safety above dollars”.
Dragongirl, since both of your children are in school, I’m still unclear as to why you don’t look for a part-time job that you can do during school hours.
Also, many online courses are very affordable, and you could do something like that while the kids are in school, until you can find a job (or if you really don’t want to work, instead of finding a job). Housework should not take 7-8 hours each and every day.
But I have to wonder if perhaps you’re here to seek sympathy instead of answers?
You have started several threads about your husband and your unhappiness. Have you ever actually tried following any of the advice provided by sincere, caring Dopers, or are you only looking for pats on the back and “there, there dears” instead?
It seems that by staying in an unhappy relationship, you’re cheating at least 4 people out of a better life. Your husband is allowed to treat you this way, but he doesn’t sound happy about it - it’s very hard to respect a doormat. I’m not saying he doesn’t have his own issues - he obviously does. But you let him get away with what several others have identified as emotional abuse. And you are certainly not doing your children any favours - if you can’t improve your situation for your own sake, can’t you do it for THEIR sake?
I’m not saying you HAVE to leave your husband or get a job or go back to school or get some work experience. What I am saying is that I truly hope that someday you will wake up and realize that you, your husband, and most of all your children, deserve a better life. And then for GOD’S SAKE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT instead of snivelling and doing nothing and expect it to magically improve all by itself.
I think, that in your own way, you were trying to help. But your last sentence shows that you have no clue what it’s like to be trapped in a situation, especially one in which you are emotionally abused.
We don’t know that dragon ISN"T reading and storing away all of the excellent advice she’s recieved. But it takes time to break the fear and dependency. Personally, I think that her reaching out, IS part and parcel of her moving toward a decision.
Not everyone does things the “perfect” or immediate way you know.
I am still interested in a response to my question - How many SAHP have a back up plan if for one reason or another they find themselves suddenly alone and have to support themselves and (maybe) kids?
From whom? The folks in this thread have been supporting Dragongirl, no one has made any kind of remark that could be even remotely misconstrued as parents who don’t stay at home are substandard.
Once again, supporting one does not equal putting down the other.
How many DI parents have a back up plan? There is no way to answer your question without finding out who ALL of the SAHPs are in the US and then polling them. Most parents do the best they can, unfortunately as the statistics say, a lot of Americans are one or two paychecks away from being homeless, or at the very least having to move in with relatives.
This is not an argument for both parents working because the argument “what if something happens?” can apply in any situation whether both parents work, or if one stays home, or if they both work part time or what have you.
The “but the family will be poor and the kids will have to live in substandard conditions” was addressed above. But I’ll reiterate it, THAT scenario can happen regardless of how many parents in the family are working. It can happen even IF both parents are working.
Again, I have done both, in addition to having been a single parent. My daughter, who is 24, almost 25, was from my marriage, I divorced HIM because he wouldn’t lift a finger to help in the marriage, I worked, and took care of everything, and his contribution was to change diapers give bottles, smoke dope and eat us out of house and home. Yes, he did the bare minimum for our baby, but otherwise lazed about doing nothing.
Twelve years later, and with a long time partner, I had my son, my little “surprise” and yes, I was on birth control, I was 31 then. We stayed together until my son was 6. I worked most of that time except the first year, when I was nursing, he stayed home, and like my ex husband, did nothing beyond being there for “safety” reasons, he talked my then 12 year old daughter into most feedings and diaper changes unless she was at school.
So I have absolutely NO prejudices against either choice, except that of IF a person is the SAHP, then they need to do their fair share, not sit back for a free ride. Dragongirl is obviously not doing that, she’s contributing to everything from housework to paying bills and doing all the errands to working from home. I honestly haven’t seen anyone else express any negative attitudes ageinst the working parent either.
First, when I asked, I wasn’t asking in the literal sense "How many in the U.S. . . . " I was asking the participants on this board.
I am not saying that families should have both parents working - not at all. What I am asking is how many stay at home parents have put total financial control in their partner? In Dragongirl’s case fer instance, if her husband walked out the door tomorrow and left her with squat, would she be able to support herself and her children or has she put herself in a vulnerable position where she has no schooling nor job experience to fall back on? Does she realize that all the problems she has now with babysitters, fuel costs, schooling costs, will be so much worse if she ever found herself without her husband’s income?
In my line of work, I counsel widows of veterans (WWII widows mostly). There is a large percentage of these elderly women who have spent their married life as housewives dependent on their husbands. It’s just how the world was back then. They usually end up in my office lost and confused and believing that everything will be taken care of as it always has been by their husbands. In some situations this is true, if they are approved for DIC (service connected death compensation) or widow’s pension. In a lot of cases we have to turn them away with nothing. They have to survive on their late husband’s social security or other pension because they did not plan for their own retirement or financial future. It is no wonder the poverty level of the elderly is so high. It is JMHO but I think a lot of the blame is that there were many more SAHM during that generation who left all financial control to their husbands and our now suffering for not better preparing.
In the case of younger generations, I think it is highly foolish NOT to protect yourself financially. At the very least, these SAHP need to have some type of education or work experience to fall back on if something were to happen to their marriage (death, divorce, abandonment ).
To totally depend on another person for all of your financial security is scary and foolish. You mention that most people are 2 or 3 paychecks away from homelessness. It is a lot less than that for a SAHP who has no safety net whatsoever.
I’ve been checking in and reading everything you all wrote.
I’ve never said that SAHPs are any better or worse then working parents, as far as I’m concerned, everyone just needs to do what’s best for their own families, whatever it is.
As to what someone else said about me just wanting sympathy, that’s a little bit true, but not entirely. I think that you are all very smart people and I feel like you are my friends. So, I guess I’m also looking for everyone’s point of view, some advice and some understanding.
I honestly don’t know what to do about my marriage. I was only 19 when I got married and being a housewife is all I really know how to do, right now. I do feel trapped. I know that I couldn’t earn enough to provide for my kids by myself. I guess I was stupid when I got married and I never anticipated things would turn into what they are now. I never planned on it.
No, I’d be lying if I said I do housework 8 hours a day, I don’t. I really wouldn’t mind getting a part time job, if I could find one that would actually work around the kids school hours. I did apply to be a lunch lady at school last year, but they didn’t need any help at the time. I just don’t know what kind of job I caould get that would let me off of work when my kids get sick, have snow days and all of the vacation time off. I’m not trying to be negative, but I really can’t think of any others.
I’m not usually around in the evenings because my husband doesn’t like me to be on the computer at night, but this is the kind of job he’s got. He left this morning at 2:30 and here it is 9:47 and he’s still at work. So, I really couldn’t get a job at night either.
It would be pretty simple to get a job at McDonald’s or something along those lines, but I really don’t know how long it would last. I was fired from my last job because of sitter problems and my husband’s hours, I don’t see that changing any time soon.
If he said anything along the lines of “I work long hours and I’d like a different job, but you would have to help me make up for the pay loss.” I’d be fine with it, but that’s not what he wants. He will not leave his job for anything.
Right now, I’m scared of leaving and I’m also scared of him leaving me. I don’t know where to go from here.
“From whom? The folks in this thread have been supporting Dragongirl, no one has made any kind of remark that could be even remotely misconstrued as parents who don’t stay at home are substandard.”
The comments throughout this thread stating how important it is for a parent to be home with their kids. I don’t agree. I think the quality of time spent with a child far out weighs the amount of time. Crap, in some cases, kids would be much better off with less time spent with their parent.
I just lost my independant housekeeper. She was able to swing through pretty much on her own schedule (I’m a working mom - so I didn’t care when she showed up on Thursday, as long as sometime between the time I left and the time I got home the house got cleaned). She cleaned my house and I paid her $25 an hour - $100 a week (three hours Thursday, and an hour of weekend repair on Monday). If you had one or two clients a day, you could easily manage this while the kids were in school. You’d gross around $400 a week - out of that would come taxes and cleaning supplies.
I wouldn’t even mind a housekeeper who took “summers off” Its not too difficult once my kids can play outside to find time to clean my own house in the warmer months. Or you could find a high school kid to help you with your own kids during the summers.
There are a lot of other services that working moms will pay someone to do…run errands, stay home for the furnace guy, etc.
Canvasshoes: “From whom? The folks in this thread have been supporting Dragongirl, no one has made any kind of remark that could be even remotely misconstrued as parents who don’t stay at home are substandard.”
There is not a single post with comments which state “how important” it is for a parent to be home with their kids". The closest any of them come to that is, “if that is what you love”.
Most of the posts are in support of Dragongirls specific situation, and answer the question asked in her subject heading, “what’s wrong with being a SAHM” with “nothing”.
The ones that aren’t fully in support of her contain advice for Dragon on what to do in her situation, including how to try and get a part time job. The post that I was personally replying to was
**you with the face’s
[/quote]
where she states:
My complaint with it was that it was as if, if your kids reach some “magical” age, you are obligated to stop being a SAHP and go back to work, as if all the other stuff SAHPs do is suddenly of no worth.
It is FINE to be a working mom, depending upon the parent (ME for one) it’s sometimes BETTER for the kid if the mom works. Lots of the people in this thread are SAHMs, and neither the ones who are SAHMs nor the ones who are working parents have made statements or implications that it’s somehow not as good as being a SAHM. Or even that it’s “so important to SAH with your kids”.
Some have said that was what THEY needed to do in their lives, but in no way did anyone state it as an overall “this is what is the best way” choice. Like someone else said, do a search and look for the thread on the guy pitting his lazy SAHW. Most people were in support of him. NO ONE, unless you are bringing in what people IRL have said to you, in THIS thread has even hinted that it’s better or more important to SAH.
I ended up having to get a job in another province just so that I could get some emotional distance from him. broke up with him over the phone. Cowardly? Yes. Necessary? Probably not. All I could think of? Absolutely.
But I do know that all of the whining and snivelling I did to my friends over those 9 years didn’t help me find the strength to end that unhealthy relationship. What finally helped me was the realization that I was the ONLY ONE WHO COULD CHANGE MY LIFE, and I had to creatively find a way to do that. [/slight hijack]
**Dragongirl ** - you need to realize the same and then DO something about it. Find the motivation to try a correspondence course - upgrade your computer skills perhaps - or look for books at the library that can help you learn basic software like Word and Excel. Volunteer at the school office, or at the hospital or something - many organizations can give you the job experience you need, the hours are often flexible enough for you to find something that works for you and your family - plus you get a positive reference out of it, as well as probably the most important thing - a feeling of renewed confidence in your self-worth and your abilities.
Sympathy and understanding and strokes are important - but they can also soothe you into feeling like you’re not alone. Ultimately you really are, because no-one on the SDMB can truly help you until you’re ready, trite as it sounds, to help yourself.
Well, having been in a similar situation myself, I can’t understand why you’d lambast Dragon with 'sniveling and whining".
Everyone approaches things in life differently. Dragon only recently started posting about these problems, which in my mind seems to suggest she’s only recently started thinking about the possibility of leaving him.
With a lot of people, it’s time to gather their nerve, not to mention information and good advice. I know it took me awhile, and I was in my relationship almost as long as you were in yours. It was likely 6 months before I was ready to say “okay, that’s it”. And that was after a lot of soulsearching and what you call “whining and sniveling”.
It looks to me, more as if what dragon is doing is information gathering, “am I doing the right thing” gathering, so to speak.
If she’s still here and doing the old IDBB thing in another 6 months, I’ll eat my words. But I don’t think that what she’s doing here is “sniveling and whining”. No offense, just mho.
Dragongirl - it sounds like you need some help with understanding ‘career’. Even though you think you have no skills, you obviously do from being a SAHM. I suggest you go see a career counsellor to talk over where your interests and skills lie, also discuss educational programmes, the job market, especially the hidden job market. These days there are some very good ways to do this, eg. informational interviewing - you target some companies/organisations that you are interested in and go and interview the manager. Occassionally this leads to a job.
Not sure what is available where you are, but here you can get assistance with payments for career counsellors. Also there are many free, online resources that may help with discovering your job interests and how to find jobs or educational programmes.
Dragongirl - I am a SAHM and my children are 11 & 12 years old. Mr. Adoptamom and I feel that our children need one of us to be there when they get home in the afternoons. Purely personal, but it’s our opinion that in middle and high school our children continue to want us as sounding boards and someone to share their day with, therefore one of us will be at home if at all possible. We fully respect and support other parents which choose differently.
Throughout our childrens lives, I’ve either worked at home (childcare, software testing, housecleaning for others) or worked for companies that respected our committment to our family first. I’ve been fortunate to find employment that allowed our children to come to work with me as needed (summers and school breaks). Mr. Adoptamom has always been self employed and can set his own work hours around family responsibilites and/or bring our children to work with him as needed.
I find it very sad that your husband does not value your contributions as a full time wife and parent. Mr. Adoptamom prefers if I am home for our children, but is willing to be there himself should I choose to work full time in a conventional career M-F, 8-5 if that is what would make me happy.
Lack of support and respect seems to be the biggest obstacles in your relationship with your husband and you can bet your last dollar that your children are learning that from him. Do you want your son to disrespect his future wife like this? Do you want your daughter to beleive that your relationship with your husband is a healthy one ? One to pattern her own marriage after? By the tone of your previous posts, I don’t think so.
As mentioned by other posters, you have a variety of marketable skills that you could feasibly earn decent money at during school hours. Perhaps working during those hours would be the best solution to your immediate problem, understanding that you really haven’t resolved the underlying relationship issues which additional money will not help.
Another suggestion, which I am hesitant to post because it just sounds wrong but may be a temporary solution to your husband listening to those idiots at work, is to plant the idea in his head that he is such a good provider that his wife doesn’t “have” to work outside the home. Some folks need the ego stroking and such in order to feel strong :rolleyes: Unfortunately, I know of a gal who resorted to such tactics with her husband and they worked :eek:
I wish you the best of luck and pray that if you do begin working, that you squirrel some money away for your future. I also strongly suggest that you strive for your family to be as debt free as possible. Mr. Adoptamom and I have worked very hard to keep consumer credit limited to our home mortgage and one vehicle only so that if something should happen to his ability to bring home the bacon, I would be able to pick up the ball with little to no “shock” on our finances and lifestyle.
Diane, I think your question is an interesting one - not only for SAHPs but for DI folks who live up to both incomes. I had a similar ephinany a few years ago over a near job loss. But its rather a hijack of this thread. If you want to start in over in IMHO I’d be happy to relate my experiences in that regard and be interested in what others have to say.
