Check out the post I linked. There is way more at work than groping alone. Most men do not harass so obviously, and a good deal of men don’t even recognize their behavior as harassing (because it’s “charming” or “complimentary” or “persistent”). I’m not talking only about assumptions of claims to my body, but also an assumed right to my time and my attention, sometimes even my admiration. This treatment is distinctly different from the way men are treated by strangers in public, and yes, it demonstrates an attitude that men have a right to whatever they want from me, without any thought given to what I want. If that’s not a demonstration of possessiveness, I don’t know what is.
My question was simply to what extent you think this observation can be generalized: most men? All men?
I don’t dispute that there are plenty of jerks (and worse) out there.
“Enough” men.
“Too many” men.
“Why’re you bein such a bitch? Are you on the rag? Why don’t you just wear a fucking mood ring or something, so people would know. Man’s just tryin to be nice. Damn whores.”
“Enough” men and “Too many” men are both the answer, but also included are the men who excuses it. If one men hits on me in a day and won’t take no for an answer, and I tell another man, who tells me, “He’s just trying to be nice” and “You should give him a chance” instead of understanding that it’s not complimentary to be chased after I said no, then I’m sorry but he’s part of the problem, too.
Saw this pic on CNN and it reminded me of this thread:
He’s kissing her on the head even though it looks like she’s not comfortable with that. It’s not necessarily wrong for Trump to kiss her, but it would only be appropriate if they already had a close relationship and were at least friends. This image looks more patronizing than an indication that they have a close relationship.
This is the kind of stuff I see at the gym all the time. Not the kissing, but the entitlement of the guy to bother a woman even though she’s clearly not interested.
It reminds me of all of the controversy when Richard Gere kissed Shilpa Shetty. Everyone was like “OH! IT’S JUST A KISS! Indians are so fucking prudish!” Even me. Then I watched the video. Despite her clearly being surprised and not wanting the extent of the kiss he gives her, he plants one on her anyway, literally bending her over in front of a huge crowd and totally disregarding her protests.
So many people just don’t get it! And so when I hear a man say, “Well, I’ve never seen it happen, therefore it obviously doesn’t happen,” well, that’s why we roll our eyes.
Yeah, that’s not a happy face (on her). Look how tense her neck muscles are. She’s frozen into place.
The world is full of jerks. If you read threads or articles about this subject matter, you will notice a whole, whole lot of even people who write about this subject and are pretty invested in it freely and openly admit - frequently - that neither all nor most men are ones exhibiting problematic behavior.
Now think about how many individuals you see on any given workday. If you live in a larger city, that number can easily hit 100 people - if you take public transit it can break 1,000 easily. I live in a medium-sized city and work in a contained building off the beaten path, I drive myself to work and often eat lunch at my desk and I still see and have minimal interaction with 25 - 50 people on any given day. When I lived in New York and took the subway and the LIRR, that number was much closer to 500 people on any given day.
What do you think the percentage of men displaying the complained-of behavior needs to be before women start running into it routinely? I can guarantee you it’s in the single percentages. Which is well within the tolerance of “plenty of jerks” in the population.
I think the pure mathematics of it is one of those things that trips up men who read the threads about harassment in all its many forms and think to themselves “But I don’t do that and my friends don’t do that and I don’t observe the behavior” and then start assuming the people who discuss it and complain about it are exaggerating for effect. Now think - of all the people you know, do you know anyone who might exhibit the behavior pattern? I bet you do.
I know I do. Hell, my last boss routinely openly fondled his genitals while speaking with the women who work in our office - not just “adjusting”, but full on fondling. He never did it while speaking with men who worked in our office - just the women. And not just with support staff - he did the same damn thing when speaking with female partners. He was also proud - sincerely and genuinely - of what he referred to as his “flattering persistence” when pursuing women between marriages (and, for all I know, during marriages). By this, he meant he just asked out any woman he found marginally appealing and then KEPT ASKING regardless of her answer until she gave up and agreed. Over and over and over - often daily. Waitresses, flight attendants, bartenders, baristas, checkout girls at the supermarket, women in his cycling group (he appeared to be confused as to why women “never stuck around” in his cycling group - I HAVE A CLUE FOR YOU). Comments about how hot he thought they were and repeated, constant, requests to date him. In his mind, he was sure he was being suave and charming - as opposed to how a fair number of those women viewed him - which is obnoxious and creepy.
Now think how many people the jackhole of your acquaintance or my former boss is likely going to interact with over the course of a day. It gets easier to see how even a relatively small percentage of jackhole can cause a fairly major effect, doesn’t it?
On the Dope? IME in threads here people start generalizing all over the place.
In asking the question earlier, I was just trying to caution against Kaio doing that – I was expecting the response “No of course not most men” and that would be that.
I would never dispute that jerks have a negative influence on a whole lot of people.
I wasn’t saying anyone has or has not had much contact with jerks. Indeed I wasn’t actually asserting anything, just objecting towards language that seemed to be moving ever closer to just saying “This is what men think of women…”
Beat me to it. This IS NOT only about the few men who are total jerks, know they are jerks, and just don’t care. This is about the men who are jerks, but have been so brainwashed by the culture of toxic masculinity that they have no idea they are jerks, they just think that this is what “being a man” is supposed to be. It’s about the guys who would never dream of being jerks overtly, but habitually command women to “smile” or are “persistent” in their attention because they think it’s flattering and have absolutely no clue how it undercuts our autonomy. It’s about the men who never see the harassment women deal with so declare that it must not exist. It’s about the men who don’t notice how men’s behavior towards women demonstrates that unquestioned belief that they have a right to us – aka ownership over us – and assert that it must be our imaginations, or crazy feminists, or maybe a critical thinking exercise but it’s not like it’s DATA or anything. It’s about the men who hear women speaking about their own personal experiences and TELL US that we have come to incorrect conclusions – he was complimenting you, not asserting ownership over you, you must have imagined it, blah blah blah. It’s about being blind to male privilege and how exactly that impacts you, me, and everyone every single day. It’s about implicit bias and the resume test – keeping in mind that men AND women have consistently scored the resume with a woman’s name at the top as less competent than an identical resume with a man’s name. It’s about a culture where women-as-possessions-of-men is SO NORMAL that a lot of people, even perhaps MOST people – men AND women – don’t even notice it. NO ONE IS IMMUNE TO THE CULTURE WE LIVE AND BREATHE IN. Not me. Not YOU. It is everywhere, it infiltrates and influences our unconscious habits of thinking.
This thread is all one long stunning example of what I’m talking about. It’s gotten to the point of practically being a self-parody. Your denial of the behavior IS the behavior.
Yes, it is influencing you, Mijin, because you are still asking me to absolve you from guilt instead of listening to my experiences and those of the other women in this thread, and maybe, just maybe, asking if there are ways for you to help turn things around.
I’m pretty sure you don’t need me to soothe your poor wounded feelings, dude. You can take it, you’re an adult. I’m discussing the reality of my experience, and if that makes you uncomfortable, tough. If that makes you realize that you have a part to play in this cultural gestalt of how we, as a society, treat women, THAT’S THE POINT. Be an ally. Accept responsibility. Take a good hard look at your own assumptions and behaviors. Stand up to other men when you see them treating women like property, even if it’s “just a joke” or “he meant it as a compliment.”
That was the whole point of that comic. Sheesh.
I think we have our answer.
Back when I was just a very effeminate young “male” (or mostly male-bodied person, whatever) I used to go to a gym. I was either 18 or 19; I can’t remember exactly. But I was small (5’4"-5’5"), had no body hair, weighed about 130 pounds, and had breasts which were an A-cup, shrank down from larger when I had my intersex “reverse puberty” thing. Nonetheless I covered myself at all times, and never showered or undressed in the lockers; I used my locker only to hold my street shoes, coat, etc.
I went to the gym to try to get a little healthier and to hope that by working out I would feel better, maybe gain some positive energy.
I was hit on by the men in the lockers, while working out, while getting water, while cooling off outside, while starting to walk home. I went to the gym 3 times a week, and would be hit on about once a week on average. For all this was the mid-late-1980’s, with lots of anti-AIDS-fear homophobia to go around, I was propositioned a lot. It was always very quiet, no groping, just close casual conversation, wherein the man would ask me if I wanted to come home with him. I have no doubt no other men really knew what was going on; men tend to have blinders on towards that sort of thing anyhow.
I stopped going to the gym when I had just finished working out close to closing time, and a very tall and muscular man grabbed my arm in the locker room and tried to drag me, still fully clothed into the shower with him, so I could blow him. Because “you look like a bitch, you should be treated like a bitch.” Thankfully right at that time an employee came in and my attacker let me go. I never returned to that gym, or any other for at least a decade.
Now that I live and look fully female, I’ve still never gone to a mixed gym, except a couple of times to a hotel gym to use a treadmill. And every now and then, some “friendly” older man will come up and start talking to me, standing there while his eyes drift down to my small but visible-through-the-top vests, and they won’t leave me alone until I go out of my way to mention I’m married and show them my ring.
Or sometimes they hold up their left hand and say “me too” and then still ask me out. :rolleyes:
Well. That speaks volumes. Timing too.
These women have a point. Men quite often don’t behave well and are intimidating as the average man is larger, stronger, and faster than the average woman which automatically puts the woman at a severe disadvantage in situations that are potentially physical. Since exercising in a burka is uncomfortable and impractical, spaces for women to be in peace don’t seem to be unreasonable. If men want men only gyms I don’t see a problem with that as well. I wonder how people would feel if gyms were restricted by race or religion though.
The solution seems to be to treat people with respect and mind boundaries. Good luck with that.