Yeah, I know. That’s why I’m careful how I do it. Never more than a quick glance.
You’ve been giving me anecdotes about men hitting on/harassing you. I don’t doubt them, but unless you’re clairvoyant you couldn’t possibly tell me WHY they did it. The cartoon you posted claims it’s because men view themselves as the owners of outdoor spaces and seek to control the women that come into them. That strikes me as unsupportable BS. The result of someone sitting in a room and applying their “critical thinking skills” as opposed to, you know, asking guys why they do that.
So, I’ll ask again: What is the evidence that men are hitting on women because they view themselves as the owners of space and the women who pass through it? That is the bone of contention for me. Not whether or not some guys hit on or harass random women, but that we should accept as fact that they do it for that reason as opposed to, say, just trying to get laid.
This actually undercuts the argument. The fact that you have a man should only work as a deterrence if he’s present (it’s about not challenging the man, so it says, and has nothing to do with you). The fact that guys back off when they merely learn you’re in a relationship suggests the motive was an attempted hook up, the chances of success going from low, to lower, to not a chance, at which point they cut their losses and move on.
Good question. Do you expect there to be one answer? I don’t.
I’ve had plenty of experiences where despite making it clear I am in a committed marriage men continue to try to get me to consent to sex: “He’ll never know”, “How married are you, really?”, and so forth.
So not all guys back off.
No, the part you (and they) are missing is that their chances were already at not a chance, because I said no. I said no again with an explanation that I wasn’t interested. So it went from low to not a chance to still not a chance. How does the information that I have a partner take it anywhere at all? It shouldn’t, except that (some) men have this idea that what I want is irrelevant. That I can say no, and it’s not not a chance. To them, and apparently you, only the fact that I have a partner puts me into the category of “not a chance.”
And before you ask, it’s most certainly gender based. I don’t get the same reaction if I tell them I have a girlfriend or wife. That only increases interest and redoubles efforts.
It’s the behavior of these men that make their motivations transparent, as WhyNot has explained, and reiterated, and explained again. They ACT LIKE they own us.
We say No. Rather than accepting that as a legitimate answer, the man persists. We say “husband!” Suddenly, THAT matters, and he backs off. What WE want was irrelevant to him. What our HUSBAND might want was the only answer that held sway over his behavior. From this, it is patently obvious, that a man’s “ownership” over a woman (as her husband) is more valid to him than her right to make her own choices.
I don’t feel like retyping all this, so here’s some real-world examples:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18474345&postcount=58
and I’ll make particular note of:
And if you’re still having trouble grasping what I mean, consider how many times a man you don’t know has grabbed your arm and tried to drag you with him, for any reason, after you’ve already said no.
There is an assumption that a man has a right to me, my time, my attention, my body (as demonstrated by the gropers and grabbers), just because I exist; rather than acknowledging my autonomy as an independent actor who makes my own choices about those things. If you can’t understand how that clearly demonstrates men claiming ownership over the women they see in public places, and only relinquishing that claim in the face of what he believes is another man’s prior claim, I can’t help you. It’s not that difficult a concept, and we have all explained it backwards and forwards already.
I’ll also point out (again) that your dismissiveness of our personal experiences is another example of this male ownership of space – in this case, narrative. Apparently all women must be really bad at reading social cues and men’s behavior, or something, because you simply can’t believe that we’re reading their behavior correctly. You, as a man, insist on controlling the narrative: you created your own story as to what really happened with Persistent Man – and just like Persistent Man, came to the conclusion that “No, I’m not interested” really meant he still had a chance to get laid – and WhyNot’s story couldn’t possibly be right, and in fact it undercuts her argument. We, as women, couldn’t possibly apply critical thinking skills, observe straightforward behavior, and come to correct conclusions. Because, reasons.
There is some repression of men in society so the paranoia is understandable. But unnecessary.
Both sexes appreciate a repreat from he dating arena of life sometimes.
Would a male only gym be frowned upon? I’m not sure… I don’t think so. I would like somewhere to focus on work sometimes, I’d say there’s a market for it but in such a geographical and therefore inefficient market it could only work probably somewhere like LA.
I’d prefer to dodge the sensitivity of it though and have separate male and female areas in the same gym. You could even call each section a changing area.
The variety of sexual orientations appears to makes the whole thing a bit ridiculous… But in the context of societal perceptions it still males sense… Even if such divisions are offensive to anyone not completely in the provided boxes (I. E. Most people)
I agree with everything you’ve said up to now, and indeed I would go further and say if a guy is opening with “Nice tits…” you immediately have every right to be offended and the guy’s a jerk.
But ISTM the language is shifting somewhat, and now it’s as though you’re implying some men groping = evidence that all, or most, men consider women to be their property. Or have I mis-parsed?
Obviously ALL men don’t do anything. Not all men even have eyes, after all.
I think the point here is that for some women, the gym is along the continuum of spaces we often separate- changing rooms, rest rooms, etc, in that they involve a level of exposure and positions that some women aren’t comfortable with in a mixed environment. This may be personal, but it may also be cultural. People just have really different modesty levels.
I think getting hit on/harassed is a pain . But the main motivation to women’s only gyms is simple modesty. It’s a personal and powerful force that is drilled in to some women-- sometimes quite aggressively-- from early childhood. It’s not something you can just “get over”. For some women, running in gym shorts on a treadmill feels just as exposed and uncomfortable as you walking down the street without pants.
There are plenty of mixed gyms, and I don’t think anyone is being hurt with women’s gyms. If they are, I’m fine with them bringing on a lawsuit and demonstrating it. I’m also fine with them applying public pressure. I’m also fine with male-only gyms.
#notallmen
:rolleyes:
nm
I’ve known married women who get hit on by other women also so to me (along with transgendered who want to use the opposite sex restroom), that kind of underscores the need for single gender gyms.
No you haven’t. I’ve never seen it so it must never happen. 
More to the point, if there was enough demand, the franchise linked to several times in this thread would be more successful and widely known. Since a bunch of their links go to gyms that no longer exist, it’s pretty clear the demand isn’t there.
Why would men want men only gyms? I ask in all seriousness, no sarcasm? You guys have been given many reasons why women might want women-only gyms. Whether you believe they are true or not is moot. Those are the reasons. What are the reasons men want single gender gyms?
I guess the answer is they don’t, like WhyNot says. Otherwise they would be open.
Just wanted to say, Guys, the women posting here are right. It is one of the thousand little slaps in the face we women have to deal with every day, that many men find it impossible to believe that we know our own minds and that what we say, we mean. Not taking a woman seriously is really insulting, AND, if you’re trying to find out if she’s interested in you, will probably remove any interest she may have had.
Now:
I think it would be fine and could work just about anywhere. I know it would in the small town where I live. We have a women-only gym, a martial arts school open to both sexes, and a township rec center open to both sexes. I can’t imagine anyone getting upset over a male-only gym when we have plenty of other options. Just my 2 cents.
I have been “hit on” exactly ONCE by a woman since I got married. ONCE.
I have lost count of how many times I have been hit on by men in the average month or even week.
The other thing is that it is far, far, far less likely another woman will attempt to overpower me and rape me than a man wound, and if she did make such an attempt, I am far more likely to be able to physically protect myself than from a man who, even if he was as short as I am, will still have better upper body strength.
The two scenarios are in no way comparable in my opinion.
As for transgender people and bathrooms, we already did that as a poll around here. The verdict is that the vast, overwhelming majority of women really do not care about that issue and the notion of a transwoman using the women’s toilet area is far more of a concern and fear for men than for women.
I’ve been hit on exactly once by a woman in my life. It was at a nightclub, a place where the guests are generally expected to hit on one another.
I’ve been hit on by men more times than I could ever count or remember: at clubs, at work, at the gym, on the street while jogging, while walking the dog, once after a court hearing, while taking out my trash, while pushing a cart full of lab mouse cages across campus, waiting for a bus…etc., etc.- pretty much any time and anywhere. That’s why women aren’t particularly worried about getting hit on by other women at a gym.
One unique thing about gyms is it’s one of the few places where the same group of strangers will come together on a regular basis. If you work out at a certain time, you’ll often see the same faces over and over. This makes it easy to get to know people since there can be a series of small conversations that lead to more.
However, it can also be annoying if you’re not into talking, yet the chatty people keep talking to you. As a guy I don’t think there’s any ulterior motive, but a woman has to always be wondering if they’re being hit on.
One incident that opened my eyes to this was when I was at the gym talking to my instructor after class. I mentioned an article relating to the class and she she said “Oh, I’ll have to tell my boyfriend about that.” The message in that being: don’t flirt with me. Even though I meant nothing like that, she probably has to put up that shield on a regular basis to make sure people don’t get the wrong idea. In my life I’ve never had to block like that since I virtually have never been hit on.
If that happens on a regular basis, I can see why women would want to work out in a place where they don’t have to worry about that. Personally, the introvert in me would like a gym where small talk was prohibited. When someone starts talking to me, I’m always thinking of how I can end the conversation and then avoid them for the next few visits. But even then, I’m not worried that they will start facebook stalking me, show up at my work, etc.
But it was not so long ago that there were a significant number of men-only golf courses, country clubs, nightclubs, fraternal organizations, social groups, etc.
I have met men who will speak of how much they would like a mens-only gym, where they can grunt and flex and chest-bump and curse and talk about women and do all the manly man things without being afraid of causing offense.
I think your first point is what men forget too often. It wasn’t long ago where ALL the groups were for men, and for white men at that. In my town we have a “Fort Orange Club” and a “University Club” both of which were formed for men only. Women were allowed in the Fort Orange Club in 1988. I don’t know when women were allowed in the University Club - probably around the same time. The signs out front used to say “Men Only”.
And there wasn’t an equivalent place for women. No Fort Orange Club for women, because it wasn’t expected they would need it! But there are plenty of gyms and plenty of entrepreneurs that are welcome to start their own male gym. There are no laws against it.