I think some people are “body language blind” when it doesn’t matter to them. That manager can drone on and on to his department meeting because it doesn’t matter to him if he bores those people. But he’ll be more likely to read the body language of his boss when he’s in a meeting with him, since he wants to make a good impression there.
And a guy in a bar might not read the body language of a woman he’s hitting on in a bar, because he doesn’t care if he’s making her uncomfortable; he can just keep hitting on women until he finds one who isn’t creeped out. But he might be more likely to read the body language of the big, aggressive, drunk dude in the parking lot, because he doesn’t want to get into a fight. He can be body language blind to if he’s bothering women, since it mostly doesn’t harm him, but he won’t be body language blind to certain men, since it could bodily harm him.
So that’s a long winded way of saying I don’t think that being body language blind is a thing like being color blind, where it’s genetic and you can’t help it. I think it’s more a lack of empathy.
Yes, there are people who are body language-blind, but they are truly body language-blind with everyone (like your following example with the boring manager).
But there are a metric fuck-ton of men out there who understand body language juuuuuust fine when they’re interacting with other men. But golly, somehow that magically disappears when he’s interacting with these strange and alien creatures you call “women”. This – completely coincidentally,* of course* – means he “doesn’t see” that she’s not interested or is flat out annoyed or uneasy, so he feels free to plow ahead. Because his desire to talk to or hit on a woman is more important than her desire to be left alone.
Thing is, I’m not saying this is a conscious thought running through his mind. He’s not mentally twirling his imaginary Snidely Whiplash mustache, laughing villainously at the thought that she will be mine, muahahahahaaaa! This is the result of growing up and living in a sexist society*. These attitudes and expectations are formed and supported by thousands of incredibly tiny things around us.**
And the same attitudes that make these*** men conveniently not able to understand women’s body languages and soft no’s … also result in some men**** not taking women seriously when they talk about their own experiences. They clearly misread a situation, or are exaggerating, or lying, or any other thing that means their arguments can be safely dismissed. Like when they explain why many women prefer women-only gyms…
this applies to racism, as well.
** which is why it’s maddening to hear people argue that there’s no real sexism or real racism today. No, there’s far less of the extremely blatant sexism and racism. That means that the more subtle but still harmful sexism and racism is easy to [del]dismiss[/del] [del]hand wave away[/del] somehow not notice… Particularly if you’re in the group that isn’t the target of sexism (men) or racism (white men and women).
*** see this important qualifier, here?
**** this largely includes that former group but also includes some others.
Lotta mansplaining here. Women aren’t idiots, please don’t treat them that way.
I (male) never really understood how this felt until it happened to me.
On a very small number of occaissions I’ve had women yell something to me while I was running. My immediate reaction was to look around for a second, then realize they were hooting at me, then smile and think “that’s nice”. In the best case scenario (not intentionally being an asshole), this is how men think women should react. Virtually always that’s not how it is.
I went running one morning in Key West (a famously gay enclave)–and if you go running at 8am in a vacation spot like that you’ve mostly got the place to yourself–and passed three men having some sort of conversation. One watched me run past then quietly said to another “oh, yeah”. My gut reaction was to feel threatened. He didn’t mean it that way and after a split second to think about it I knew that, but I suddenly understood what women go through all the time.
More or less, yes was always accompanied by a chaperon, for a girl and later young women of her time and social class chaperonage was the norm. Schools like Allenwood Academy existed so that wealthy families could send their daughters to school with a high degree of protection and exclusion from the world (i.e., men).
Coming from a poster who has explained mutiple tiimes that he is armed to the tits to venture out to the mailbox because you have to be hyper aware at all times that someone may be out to deprive you of your life and liberty, makes me roll my eyes so far back in my head I can see my own brain stem.
What we need is more men-only gyms. These gyms will have lots of gay men and being men, they are just as bad about ogling, groping, propositioning and inappropriate comments. (The substitute rejoinder for “Oh, you must be a lesbian” if you’re not interested is “Oh, so you’re a homophobe.”) It can be quite an eye-opener for straight guys to be subjected to such behaviors.
Or, it can confirm the the insecure men who’ve been bullied into aggression=masculinity, “reclaiming” it by ramping up their hostility toward women even higher.
This makes perfect sense, and my own wife has griped about guys (often would-be personal trainers) chatting her up while she’s trying to use the treadmill or something (when I’m not there, at least). It was the prevalence of more egregious forms of harassment, and especially groping, that seemed doubtful to me. The gyms I’ve been to are typically such open spaces that I’m not sure where someone could get groped without it being witnessed by many other people. The men’s and women’s locker rooms/showers offer some hidden spots, but they are of course completely separate, so someone would really have to be in the wrong place for any shenanigans to occur.
There are certainly plenty of valid reasons why women might prefer to go a women-only gym, but the idea that women being “groped” at the gym is such a common that women need separate gyms is almost too stupid for words.
What makes you think that men who grope require complete privacy before they attempt to molest a woman?
A few weeks ago, I was standing at the back of a large group of people at a bus stop. A guy wearing sunglasses came and stood behind me. I started to feel something odd, like the hem of my skirt creeping up my thigh. I reached back to smooth my skirt down, thinking maybe it was lying funny. I ended up discovering that the guy standing behind me had hooked the fabric over one of his fingers and was slowly lifting my skirt!
He did this even though I was in a large group of friends. He didn’t seem to need complete privacy–he just relied on the fact that I was at the far edge of the group, and no one was likely to see, and the sunglasses concealed where he was looking. Sure enough, no one in my group did see it, even though I was surrounded by friends. And I didn’t say anything, because I didn’t want to cause a fuss in a strange neighborhood or provoke the guy. (He got on the bus and rode 2 blocks to the next stop.
Guys who want to grope women are much bolder than some of the men in this thread want to believe. They aren’t looking to confront a woman in a dark hallway. All they need is a few seconds where others are inattentive because they’re exercising, waiting for the bus, etc.
Bwahahahaha. You’re a hoot. You must be a Democrat. In your mind, you’ve somehow convinced yourself that, even though we’ve never met, I should be blamed for your problems. :rolleyes:
And women and men never, ever, find a way to get together, or get away from their parents, and chaperones, because young people so enjoy the constant supervision.
In a forum titled In My Humble Opinion (IMHO), a general question was asked in the OP, “It just seems like kind of a double standard. What do you think?”
Just to be clear, I have no idea what you know, or what you’ve heard, or what you’ve read, or what you’ve tried, or what you’ve refused to try, or what you believe. We’re talking to strangers via the internet. Surprise!
I freely offered the very same advice I’ve given my three daughters, and my wife. You don’t have to accept my advice. I’m not going to force you to do anything. I’m not going to feel embareassed for offering advice that someone doesn’t like. You could say thanks-but-no-thanks, or you could find a way to blame me for your problems. Just between us, I really don’t care if you accept my advice or not.
I’m sure that you’ll figure out a workable solution to “your” problems.
