[quote=“Stratocaster, post:10, topic:502647”]
IMO it’s pretty much this.
Not nonsense at all. Your examples clearly demonstrate that the 14 yo is still the most important person in his/her life (I will die if I don’t get what I want/think I need). Still self-absorbed. When a person begins to notice that he/she is not the center of the universe and puts someone else’s wants/needs, etc. before their own, they have begun maturing.
Putting others ahead of yourself can be the job you go to even though you hate your job and don’t feel like it, but your boss is counting on you. Or your spouse really wants to go to his/her friend’s anniversary party, but you’re dead tired, but you go anyway because you know it’s important to him/her. Or you read the funnies to your child, even though you really want to watch the basketball game/soap opera. When you can put someone else ahead of your own self-centeredness, without being a shit about it or “keeping score,” rather than “it’s all about me,” that’s maturity. In my humble opinion.
Does the title of this thread make anyone else think of this :
Erm… what if you don’t have a job you hate, a spouse, or kids? Can one not be a grownup without those things?
Being a grownup is undoubtedly about realizing that sometimes you’ve gotta do stuff you’d rather not do, but I don’t agree that you have to be doing for anyone else’s sake for it to count.
Good enough for me.
I believe the heart of the OP sentiment is the point of self-actualization where a man sees himself as a man and no longer as a boy; as opposed to when others, society, etc. would treat him as one.
I’m not even sure if it is a single point or a continuum as I’m uncertain when I experienced this transformation.
Was it when I went through puberty, sex, high school, university, bachelor years, buying houses, marriage, jobs, or childbirth? I don’t think so.
My revelation came fairly recently. One dull morning while getting ready for work, with my 3 year old sitting on the counter watching me shave and my 1 year old pulling on my pantleg for me to pick him up, and my pregnant wife yelling up the stairs that breakfast was ready and it dawned on me!
“Holy Shit, look at me, I spent all my life being a boy and now when I look in this shaving mirror I see this man!”
True story.
From deR trihS:
The response:
Hey, that’s cool. I never thought about it that way.
I like this definition too. Particularly the “acts in accordance with.”
I like that it doesn’t list specific milestones, like buying a house, having kids, etc. Because many functional adults don’t do many (or any) of the standard things that serve as common markers of adulthood. I also like how it doesn’t specifically mention earning money, since there are plenty of functional adults who don’t directly earn enough to fully support themselves, such as stay-at-home moms or people with a disability.
I won’t be that person, but you’ve kind of touched on my thoughts on the issue.
Many cultures around the world conduct formal [that mark the transition from boyhood into manhood. As you’ve noted, the [url=Bar and bat mitzvah - Wikipedia]bar mitzvah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_passagerites of passage[/url) is one such rite.
My opinion is that this can be a good thing, in that the formal ceremony and official change of social status can help to spur a change in the thoughts and behaviors of the individual in question.
The flip side of that is that in cultures without such rites of passage, the transition from boyhood to manhood is much more indistinct. Case in point, this thread, in which we’re trying to figure out what exactly does mark that transition.
I never thought much about it, but posts #7, 10, and 11 are close to how I feel.
When I reached about 10 and a half or 11 years old, I started realizing I could earn money on my own (and should); that I should contribute to the family by reducing the economic burden on my parents. I became my dad’s “gopher” and learned how to do plumbing, carpentry, electrical wiring, etc. This continued through my teens.
So for me starting to become a man happened about the time I could earn money mowing lawns and delivering newspapers.
That and I believe that it keeps our perspective of what is exactly our military, men and women. Not the bombs, the planes, the ships, not the bullets.
As far as the OP, I believe a boy becomes a man when he stops being a follower in his own life and becomes a leader. Example: Comforting his mother, providing for his children, aiding his siblings, being a true friend.
My husbands grandfather led his family by example by his integrity, devotion to his loved ones, his respect for others and his enjoyment of his life. His life is such a strong beacon that my husband has struggled to find his way because by comparison, well, that is a pretty high standard. How can any man measure up? By realizing that he spent 70 years becoming the man he was. It is a journey of a lifetime.
I remember when I was 34, I had to go out to attend my father’s funeral. I barely knew him, and he died before we could resolve a whole bunch of questions about each other. His second ex-wife was drinking herself into a stupor, her son (my half-brother) was headed that way as well. My two aunts, the bedrock of the family, were a wreck because he was the first of their generation to die.
The morning of the service, many of the relatives gathered at one aunt’s apartment before going out. I looked around the room, figured that my main aunt would be speaking, one of his close cousins was going to be speaking. But his second wife was a wreck, her son fairly reeked of alcohol and that awful body odor that alcoholics get. My sister had used up all of her psychic energy just to get there (she had been estranged from that part of the family for over 25 years), so she was just huddling with her husband, drinking coffee.
There was no one else who could fit the role, so I represented the little ramshackle family units he spawned in his haphazard stumble through life. The thing is, I’d suppressed anger towards him for most of my life, and, absent his death, I was at the time beginning to form the opinion that I hated him for failing me and my sister so spectacularly. I couldn’t go off on a rant about what an irresponsible prick he’d been; that would only alienate some of the rest of the relatives I was still trying to connect with. But I wasn’t going to give him an inch, either. So I just discussed the frustrations I’d had in trying to connect with him, the disappointment I felt that I’d never be able to see if we would have ended up with a good relationship, and how I assumed that I would have found out the things about him that caused all the rest of them to care for him so strongly.
Not sure why I wrote this, but it has something to do with the subject.
Someone on the board years ago had a great quote that I don’t recall exactly, but am paraphrasing:
“Boys become men when skateboards become cars.”
Yes, it is kind of stupid, but somehow - yeah, that is about the actual age.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Those were just a couple of examples, but if you read the other posters’ posts you’ll see the vast majority are about or include responsibility to other people. If everything you do is only for your own benefit, how is that being an adult? It’s still all about “me, me, me” which, IMO, is quite childish.
Case in point: my son-in-law is gainfully employed, but remains the most self-centered person I know. He would rather not be employed, but he does go to work. Does that make him a man? He works and contributes to rent, electricity, etc. because my daughter will throw him out if he doesn’t. He works and contributes not to benefit the family, but only for his own comfort. He does nothing that does not benefit himself; if someone else gets a benefit, fine, but he does nothing only for someone else. He will, for another example, drink the last of the milk in the house at night even though his young son will need it in the morning. He is and has always been the most important person in his life and, despite his age, his employment, his status as “husband and father,” he is not a man, and everyone who knows him, recognizes that.
Again, this is my humble opinion. You are entitled to your opinion. Why would you denigrate mine?
Lola made me a man.
Sums it up for me. I tell my boys (yes “boys”) that they are men when they can flap their wings and stay aloft under their own power. When they are ready to be men all of the time, not just when the privileges are being handed out.
I’m not, I’m having a discussion, here.
You can’t demonstrate that one can ONLY be an adult by putting others first by holding up an example of one guy who SHOULD be taking care of his family and isn’t (which I agree makes him not much of a man), because that doesn’t reflect at all on the people who don’t have families, but take perfectly good care of themselves.
By your definition, a self-supporting, law-abiding, tax-paying good citizen with no dependents is not an adult, and I can’t get with that.
You called my post “nonsense,” a term seldom conducive to a “discussion,” while completely misunderstanding it. My opinion is just as valid as yours. You have tried to pick apart my examples, but the premise remains. I never said “a self-supporting, law-abiding, tax-paying good citizen with no dependents is not an adult.” Just the opposite. And my SIL was, again, just one example of a completely self-centered person.
I’ll try to walk you through this: By definition, “a self-supporting, law-abiding, tax-paying good citizen” IS an adult, dependents notwithstanding. Someone who is NOT an adult doesn’t care if he pays taxes or not, and doesn’t care if he breaks this or that law, if it gets him what he wants when he wants it. (I am using “he” but it applies to both genders.)
The person you describe with no family or friends, puts society and the government, i.e., “OTHERS,” ahead of his personal desires. He may want that new television, but he has to pay taxes to support program that do not benefit him, or he may really, really want to have sex with that teenager over there, but the law, says, No, No, No! He must squelch his own desires to do what he does not want to do, or to NOT do what he wants to do.
Many people who are “self-supporting” are not IMHO “adults” because they will do whatever is necessary to get what they want, when they want it. They may prostitute themselves, steal, kill, commit fraud, lie, cheat, whatever (N.B. These are “examples.” I do not want to try to list each and every possible bad thing that people are willing to do to get their own way.)
My premise remains, so please let me repeat it for you: In my opinion, one can only be an adult when he or she is no longer the most important person in his/her life.
What you’re describing here is someone who doesn’t want to go to jail. That’s pretty self-serving. Simply not engaging in unethical or criminal behavior doesn’t make one self-sacrificing,
By definition, stealing, fraud, cheating, etc. make one **not **self-supporting. Certainly one can be the most important person in one’s own life without being a raging asshole, a headcase, or generally a menace to society. Why are you conflating self-interest with criminality?