Fired yes. 1-4 years in jail? No.
Does his rebuttal video change anyone’s mind?
Rebuttal (starts at 0:23)
Excellent post, thank you! I learned about even more disgusting behavior the Spanish women’s team had to endure I didn’t hear about in non-Spanish media. Your post puts everything we’re discussing in the (im)proper context.
I’m genuinely confused. Players laughing and chanting “Kiss! Kiss! Kiss!”–what does this even mean? How on earth does her teammates’ chanting “rebut” her very clear and unambiguous statements that the kiss wasn’t consensual?
I really am having trouble connecting the dots here.
This incident reminded me of the 2003 Oscars, when Adrien Brody grabbed Halle Berry and kissed her after winning Best Actor. It was without her consent and would absolutely be considered sexual assault by many of the posters here. Yet when I did a search for any contemporaneous discussion here I found only one poster who found it inappropriate. No one called it sexual assault. Interesting how quickly things change.
I agree, and I have changed too, hopefully for the better. We are getting woke fast, aren’t we? Woke isn’t bad, when you think of it in the right context. It is just another word for RESPECT (see → Aretha Franklin). Not being a jerk, it is called in the rules of this Board. Oh, bonus points for driving the right people crazy. Isn’t it like owning the reactionaries for the right cause?
I still have a long way to learn and to go, don’t get me wrong. And I think the women in the Spanish national football team have something to teach me.
No, I thank you and all those reading this for your attention. I think this affair is important and I hope it will be remembered in the future as one moment when things changed for the better. Although reading the comments in some of the links I and others posted I know there will be a backlash. Some people are really angry at the women.
From the background I come out of any kiss on the mouth is sexual.
A peck on the check between parent and child could be non-sexual, but then, mouth and lips are not involved.
I realize this viewpoint is not universal and I speak only for myself.
So what?
I consider a mouth to mouth kiss to be sexual in nature.
I come from a family where kisses between aunt/uncle and niece/nephew are neither expected nor done. You ask even the very young people “Do you want a hug?” before proceeding. And you don’t proceed if the other person says no.
I was a 15 year old girl in the 1960’s and I agree with both parts of that; and will add that I had been taught, and she may have been also, that either straight out asking a boy to kiss her or initiating the kiss herself would have been horribly “forward” and would have made her a brunt of very negative gossip.
I hope that we’re past that now; but suspect that the change hasn’t reached all areas/all social groups.
Are you willing to risk that they’ll think of you, for the rest of their lives, as ‘that creepy uncle who kept hugging me when I didn’t want to be hugged’?
Do they lean enthusiastically into the hug? then you’re fine. Do they pull away, back away, or stand there rigid while you hug them? Then back off!
Well before they can talk, infants can try to pull themselves away or try to push somebody away or start crying when a person approaches them or handles them. I’ve seen quite small babies make it clear that they wanted to be held by one person and not by another.
I found at least two, both of whom called it assault.
Although others were much more approving.
In case anyone’s interested, here’s an article looking back on the incident from 20 years later:
Nothing like reading old SDMB threads to make me thankful that society has changed and grown since then.
In the context of the OP we are talking about prosecution for a criminal offense. Most laws in the U.S. regarding sexual assault specify one or more of these things in the definitions of criminal sexual offenses.
HOWEVER, this happened in Spain. It is the definition of sexual assault under Spanish law that matters.
As I understand it the video takes place on the bus right after the kiss happened. The victim is the lady with the huge smile holding up the picture of the kiss on her phone.
The only dots you’re connecting here are pretty bogus. A person’s reaction immediately after sexual assault is sometimes to try to make sense out of it in a way that isn’t traumatizing. These can be “that wasn’t so bad,” to “I maybe wanted it?” to “look at that asshole, ha ha, let’s laugh at him!” None of that means the sexual assault wasn’t bad, or that, once the adrenaline has worn off, it wasn’t traumatizing.
Showing her grin doesn’t indicate that she was okay with what happened. Using it to discredit her later, very clear statements is, at best, deeply mistaken.
What is your assertion? That she did not consider it to be assault at the time, but later changed her mind?
For @Whack-a-Mole and anyone else who thinks that there’s no harm done grabbing a woman and planting one on them because you’re excited that your precious team won, please consider that according to the CDC,
One in 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape.
Don’t assume that your opinion matters. It doesn’t.
As you say, that is not universal. “Sexual assault” in other countries tend to be more generally understood. See my post up quite away about R v Chase and Canadian law of sexual assault.
But to put it a different way: personally, the only mouth to mouth kisses I’ve been involved with have been sexual in nature, even if just mildly so.
Here’s a quick poll: guys, would you kiss your sister on the mouth? your mom? your grandmom? I think most guys would say “eww, no” - because it’s a sexual gesture. At least, that’s what I would expect guys I grew up with to say. As @Broomstick has noted, different sub-cultures may have different rules.
Here’s another question: if a six year old girl comes to mom and tells her that Uncle X has been kissing her on the lips, do you expect mom to laugh and say, “oh, he’s just being friendly”. Or do you expect mom to say “Whaaat?”
Contact with lips in certain contexts is sexual in nature, just as contact with breasts or penises in certain contexts (eg medical exam) is not sexual. Context is everything, along with consent.
Yet again we see the patriarchy engage in victim blaming. “She doesn’t seem upset enough to me, she must have wanted it”. “Did you see what she was doing* just before, she must have wanted it”.
Fuck. That.
*In other contexts this may manifest as “did you see what she was wearing”.
20 years is “quickly” to you? It’s an entire generation (and a couple of important relevant social movements) later.
In my own subculture, a quick peck on the lips for mom was the norm, only up until your teens. Thereafter, the cheek. For other close relatives (dad, grandparents, aunts&uncles, older cousins, “aunties”) it was always the cheek.
I was not a fan as a kid, and stopped around 7 or 8 - not because I saw it as sexual but because my own Mom was such a heavy smoker that even a quick peck was yuck!
Nope, you missed it again. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I know what I said and I know what I meant. Why do you find it so hard to fathom that a female athlete could also be a lesbian? It’s a perfectly normal part of humanity.
The point is that instead of talking about what a great win the women’s team, here we are AGAIN talking about the antics of a man instead. Talk about stealing the spotlight.