I’ve never given my niece a kiss (that I remember–she’s 9 now), but I would definitely say “can I have a hug?” before embracing her, yes. You don’t force your affection on a child (nor anyone else, but especially a child.)
Yes, I do.
Keep in mind that (as @puzzlegal has pointed out) consent needn’t be and often isn’t verbal.
This is the crucial part…do not go to a social setting where this might happen (like the final game in the Cubs World Series). It’s on you if such social interactions are not to your liking. Not the other 200 people in the bar to be aware of your limits.
Moderating:
Stop complaining about posters evading questions when you just seem to be positing “what ifs”. This is not acceptable in Great Debates. It is verging on both Junior Modding and JAQing.
I think you may be out-of-step with improvements in our social rules. I mean that in all seriousness. 15 years ago, yeah, I wouldn’t expect a bar to bounce a guy for forcefully hugging a gal who obviously didn’t want it at a moment like that. Today, I think that’s a reasonable expectation, and I think a lot of places WOULD enforce consent. 15 years ago I didn’t have a written policy for half my events that required me to act if I saw someone else do that, either. Today I do.
But yeah, there are probably bars in Chicago that I need to avoid, because they are behind the times.
Federation: We could either do the right thing OR burn everything down to the ground. Let’s pick the second one.
related – when was that Spanish law most recently updated?
Sorry, I didn’t see the mod note when I posted. I’ll step back.
Maybe the guys who can’t control themselves should abide by this rule instead. Don’t go to social settings where being handsy might get you in trouble.
He gets to spend the WS Final game in his basement with his equally grabby dude friends, rather than go out and have a nice time with other human beings. That way, puzzlegal doesn’t have to be restricted in her movements or risk being assaulted because of these men who can’t help but grab other people.
So you are a female football player in Spain. A professional. One of the best, you even have made it into the National Team.
You have endured years of denigrating behaviour. You have been called ugly, because playing in your “underwear” does not look good on women. You were forbidden to play until the '80s, and not respected afterwards. Your coach at the national team has commented, reading a newspaper article about a gang rape, that it looked like a good team-building exercise. The president of the football federation (the man in question in this thread, Mr. Rubiales) is the direct boss of this man. He does no sack him, but organizes an alleged orgy with federation funds. You (the women) have protested repeatedly against the coach. You went on strike and boycotted the national team (18 players, 3 came back for the World Cup, 15 stayed away). The coach has insisted, and had the autority to get what he wanted, that the team captains sit in particular places during meals, so he could “see their body language” and they could not “conspire against him”. He insisted that the players sleep with the hotel doors open, so he could control that they were in bed and they did not “conspire against him”. All this (and much more – that is just what I have quoted in my posts in this thread so far, others have contributed more) while being paid 1/20th of the salary of the men. While women were grossly underrepresented in the federation, and the one who was there could not meet Mr. Rubiales, who said she should fulfill her “motherly duties” instead of discussing on-line with him as her job actually requires (quoted as well). This all has been going on for years, forever actually, surrounded by a culture of corruption and machismo.
Now this president that has been doing this for years with impunity makes a mistake: he grabs his crotch on TV during a football match while seated besides the Queen of Spain. Then, after the match, he jumps on the MVP of the Spanish team and rubs his crotch against her, grabs her head firmly in place and gives her a kiss on the lips, then, when she is departing, he gives her a slap on the gluteus maximus. All that in front of the cameras.
The player may not have realized it at the moment, she had just won a World Cup, adrenaline and endomorphines were running high in her blood. But the whole World had seen it, the media jumped on it, and at the latest during the loooong return flight home the players realized that this was their chance to get rid of the asshole. That this time, for once, perhaps for the first time ever, they had the pan by the handle (Spanish expression, could not avoid it). That this was the first battle they could win, if they played their cards well.
And they not only have played their cards well, Mr. Rubiales has played his abismally badly (lying in public, trying to pressure the player, Ms Hermoso, claiming to be the victim of “false feminism”, thus politicising the whole affair, and some more – just read the thread). I am glad for every mistake he has made. Good riddance, and fuck off, Mr. Rubiales, may you die a ruined man and rot in hell.
So you don’t consider it an assault, or not sexual in nature? I think that is irrelevant here and now. You may be right, you may be wrong (I believe you are wrong, but my opinion is irrelevant as well) but that is the way the cookie has crumbled. May this be a durable step in the right direction in Spanish football, may it improve the general culture in its organization, may it improve Spanish society as a whole.
Now the Spanish female team has two events to celebrate. The World Cup and the departure of Mr. Rubiales. Congratulations!
I love this post and want to hug and kiss it. Do I have the post’s consent?
here hear!
Never mind
Yes, of course. Do you kiss people who don’t want to be kissed? and you think that’s ok???
How about, if you’re* worried that people might react negatively to you* grabbing them and forcing yourself* on them, you* don’t go to any social settings rather than subjecting yourself* on any innocent people?
*the general “you” should not be construed to refer to any poster
There are some edge cases. I kissed my infant children on the head long before they were capable of giving or withholding consent. Not only do I not think this was abusive; I think withholding affection from infants can be abusive.
This case is instructive not because of its similarity to the soccer head’s hooliganism, but because of its difference. My children were infants incapable of expressing themselves or practicing the most basic bodily autonomy, not adults fully capable of practicing bodily autonomy. As children develop language, self-propulsion, and other aspects of maturity, they concomitantly develop the ability to give or withhold consent; and as they develop, my obligation to ask for consent stays.
Now, I ask my kids, “Do you want a hug?” or “Is it all right if I kiss the top of your head?” and I respect their answer: sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Edit: I realized after writing this that, where @Whack-a-Mole had asked about pre-kiss consent, you responded about kissing those who don’t want to be kissed. My post is somewhere between. Of course if an infant is pushing my head away I’m not gonna smooch their fuzzy little scalp.
Yes, infants (and, i suppose, people in comas) are an exception. Basic hygiene requires that others touch them in very intimate ways, and they are incapable of giving or withholding consent.
And i agree that infants need physical affection, and their parents and caretakers ought to hold them, cuddle them, kiss them, etc. Up until they develop the ability to consent. At which point, one typically reaches out to the child and it reaches back.
And there are certain health and safety issues that require contact without prior consent, like snatching a toddler out of the road, or administering CPR to an unconscious person.
None of these edge cases apply in the case of adults celebrating team victories.
If a stranger restrains you and touches you, what is that if not assault?
If it was preceded by crotch rubbing, is it not likely sexual assault?
There are certainly situations that are unclear. Is this one of them?
I wouldn’t call that an edge case so much as a different situation. Your infant child needs you to do all kinds of things for them, and proper affection and bonding is definitely part of that. And as you note an infant isn’t capable of any kind of concent at all.
Yes, I mentioned something along these lines earlier - this is how parenting is done now at a very early age. You have to be taught that your body is yours and people need your concent to touch it, and that’s something that’s made clear to children in all contexts (eg, tickling, picking up, giving kisses to aunties, etc) very early on.
Here I would say that there are edge cases - a baby who doesn’t want a dirty diaper changed or who refuses to take a bath. But the way you handle these situations needs to be balanced with ensuring kids take away the right lessons.
Right–as I said, these cases are instructive not for their similarities, but for their differences.