Moving the goalposts. Discussion here has been about the law and not whether Joe Police will enforce it.
No, but I’d object, and I’d expect the bouncer to throw him out.
Minor transgressions deserve minor punishments.
Ah. I see. That wasn’t my hypothetical; that was my reductio ad absurdeming your hypothetical to demonstrate how off-base and irrelevant it was. I apologize if it came across as a sincere hypothetical. I thought the “huh” and “didja” and “archnemesis” bit made that clear.
I’m not going to give an absurd hypothetical and then treat it as serious. That’s not my jam.
So your whole response is bogus. You have no intent to give a serious answer. By your admission.
Noted.
I mean, “admission” is a strange way to describe “criticism of your hypothetical,” and “bogus” is a weird word for “satire,” but otherwise, correct: a silly and irrelevant question doesn’t merit a serious answer. Continuing with irrelevant hypotheticals does nothing to advance understanding of the core issues.
So let me see if I can be clear on it before continuing — is the argument that what happened on that pitch should not possibly be subject to a penal law on assault? Or that at most it should be treated as a minor mischief?
So, you are in a crowded bar in Chicago. The Chicago Cubs have just won the World Series. Last time they won was over 100 years ago. The crowd is going wild. Everyone is hugging everyone. Some guy gives you a hug. You march off to find a bouncer and have him kicked out.
Really?
Several posters have stated that an unwanted kiss is a sexual assault and not a simple assault. Could those posters or others please elucidate why such a kiss is sexual in nature. Are all unwanted kisses sexual or could there be nonsexual kisses under certain circumstances? is the bacio della morte sexual assault?
A mouth-to-mouth kiss does not involve the genitalia, anus, buttocks, or secondary sexual characteristics of either party.
Also, it looks like most responses have been made from the point of view of Anglosphere law. Since the OP mentioned criminal penalties and the event took place in Spain, I think we would should look more at how Spanish law applies to this situation. I know very little about Spanish law other than it tends to follow the civil law tradition of the continental system.
It seems like there are bright lines, particularly around grabbing someone and kissing them without permission.
That’s the alternative to having a huge grey area where abusers can do what they want and victims complaints are ignored because hello…grey area , or a bright line only at forcible rape with everything less terrible being allowed. At least with a bright line at “did the other person give permission for the contact?” the courts can do their due diligence and give a punishment consistent with the level of violation.
It also tells the bad actors among us that going right up to the line still doesn’t let you abuse people with impunity.
Haven’t read the thread, but I’m just going to go with “If somebody forcibly kissed me on the mouth without my consent, lock them up and throw away the key.”
No, I push him away and complain. And I expect the bouncer to notice and kick him out. That’s what bouncers are there for. And if it’s really crowded and the bouncer doesn’t notice, or worse, if the bouncer notices and ignores it, eh, I don’t go to that bar again.
Do you get permission for every kiss you give? Does your niece or nephew explicitly consent to a kiss before you bestow one? Bright lines right?
If forcibly kissing somebody on the lips is not assault, then I need to reevaluate how I’m spending my afternoon (joke!).
Is forcibly kissing somebody sexual assault, regular assault? If not (see joke above), then what is it?
If it is sexual assault, and a violation of the law, then police and prosecutors should be the ones handling the perpetrator.
Of course we can invent scenarios where going to the police might be an over reaction (“I’m so sorry, I misread the signals, I understand you want to go, here, let me pay for your Uber.”)
Did he push past my protests? Do I think he was just using it as an excuse to cop a feel? Did he hold it too long? Did he rub his crotch on me while doing it?
Not all hugs are equal. Not all kisses are equal. Some hugs can be assault while others are not. If you are in doubt, then do not hug.
“It was a walk-off double, I couldn’t control myself!”
“Did you see what she was wearing, I couldn’t control myself!”
Damn right they do. I hated being kissed by older relatives as a child. If I lean in for a kiss, and the child doesn’t clearly present his cheek to me, I back off. Maybe give an air-kiss.
I’m a loner, Dottie… a rebel.
{please note this is a quote from Pee Wee’s Big Adventure, and I’m not nearly the rebel Pee Wee was.}
Life involves risk, and I’m willing to risk that my nieces and nephews aren’t going to call the cops on me for a hug or peck on the cheek.
This is evading the question.
It is not a grabby/kissy bar. It is a unique circumstance where a local team won and people are exuberant. 99.999% of the time, it’s just a bar and people are not randomly hugging each other.
Right. What is so hard about that.
All that, too. A really brief hug of exuberance that’s immediately dropped when I don’t hug back is just an honest mistake.
A follow on note, we played this game the other way for decades / centuries. Laughing at women being chased on screen by their sex starved bosses, believing that forcing affection on women was a way to win them over.
The amount of bullshit women have had to endure because guys can’t control themselves or are trained to be sexual aggressors… I think it’s OK to tell the dudes just keep your hands to yourself.
I don’t see how it’s evading the question. I think I gave a really clear answer of what I would do in the situation (slightly expanded, two posts above this one).
No, I don’t call the police, unless it’s a lot more than a hug. Yes, I do expect the guy to be punished – by being excluded from that social setting. And I choose to spend my time in social settings where those rules are understood.