[QUOTE=Shodan]
Don’t know if that’s true. Unfortunately, we were talking about a relationship that is, in fact, abusive, so your post has nothing to do with the discussion.
Sure.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/male_abuse.htm
Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]
This relationship is not abusive; there is no force or coercion . It is fully-consensual. All of your links are irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Incidentally, another poster weighed in with her own relationship with a “boy” that’s basically the same but the other way round, and no-one’s piped up with a condemnatory word for that one. Makes you :dubious: , doesn’t it?
[/QUOTE]
Are their kids involved in that one? I think that’s where a lot of the discomfort here is coming from. Several people have expressed that what folks do in their bedrooms is cool for them, but it’s the effect on their kids.
ETA: Supergoose keeps beating me to the punch.
It doesn’t sound like anything I’d want to be a part of but I wouldn’t care to judge them for doing as they please. Maybe they never saw a normal relationship work the way it should. Not many people do it seems.
[QUOTE=featherlou]
My only concern would be the kids learning that man as master and woman as slave was normal, and would go out into the world thinking that, but that has been addressed, I believe, and beyond that, what two consenting adults do is their business. It’s not my cup of tea, but if it’s floating their boats, it’s not my concern.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, this would be my problem. And honestly, I’d be more worried about male children than female children; the girls can think “Well, I don’t like being treated like that, so I won’t take it”, whereas boys might think that dominance in that fashion is what *all *women want.
I mean, it’s the same problem for all families, in that kids are pretty likely to model relationships somewhat on their parents. I suppose my problem with it is the combination of it being both a rarity (and so most partners any kids might have probably won’t be into it) and the harmful aspect. It’d probably make a difference if one party wanted the harm, but as I gather the idea is that she doesn’t in this case and that’s why it’s a punishment.
Preview: Crap, and i’m agreeing with Shodan. That’s the worst part of this whole affair. 
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried]
And that was fucked up too. Or are you saying that it was OK? 
[/QUOTE]
Sure it is OK. It is not like humans are really endowed by a creator with rights. We just make up rules. Morality is no different than fashion. There is nothing in nature that can give us objective standards of how to live.
Anything can be OK.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
What’s going to happen when the kids have a friend over and the friend reports back to his or her parents on the lifestyle? Now your kid has lost a friend because of your sexual fetish. That’s not gonna go over well. Not in the short term and not in the long term.
[/QUOTE]
[bolding mine]
What makes you think they have shared details of their sexual lives with their children?
Do you have the same concern for children of other unconventional families? Specially families that can’t ‘hide’ their unconventionality?
[QUOTE=Omegaman]
Maybe they never saw a normal relationship work the way it should. Not many people do it seems.
[/QUOTE]
How should a relationship work? How do you know it should work that way?
[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Be as sad as you like, but anecdotal evidence I’ve collected over the last eight years suggests that there are a sizeable minority who think it’s just fine.
Incidentally, another poster weighed in with her own relationship with a “boy” that’s basically the same but the other way round, and no-one’s piped up with a condemnatory word for that one. Makes you :dubious: , doesn’t it?
[/QUOTE]
I am that boy, actually. Where’s my pit thread, my masses yearning to break me from my chains of slavery? How, O Lords of Meddling, is my submission somehow more acceptable just cuz of the sex with which I was born? 
Also: Shodan. You did the homework wrong. It’s consensual power exchange. Go back and feed these cites to your dog, cuz they’re not applicable in a household where, on a very core level, the people involved respect each other.
Out-of-context much? The terms “brat,” “mouthy,” and “hitting” mean vastly different things to people who see precise punishment as a way of helping a relationship grow, or even just having fun. My extremely fundamentalist father occasionally popped my extremely fundamentalist mother on the ass when she walked by, but it was in the most playful way possible. And I ended up just fine. 
What makes you think freekalette and her hubby do otherwise?
[QUOTE=Shodan]
Don’t know if that’s true. Unfortunately, we were talking about a relationship that is, in fact, abusive, so your post has nothing to do with the discussion.
Sure.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/male_abuse.htm
Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]
What is it you call your girlfriend, again?
[QUOTE=Robin Goodfellow]
I am that boy, actually. Where’s my pit thread, my masses yearning to break me from my chains of slavery? How, O Lords of Meddling, is my submission somehow more acceptable just cuz of the sex with which I was born?
[/QUOTE]
Again, people are talking about a relationship which has implications for the children growing up in that household.
[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Be as sad as you like, but anecdotal evidence I’ve collected over the last eight years suggests that there are a sizeable minority who think it’s just fine.
Incidentally, another poster weighed in with her own relationship with a “boy” that’s basically the same but the other way round, and no-one’s piped up with a condemnatory word for that one. Makes you :dubious: , doesn’t it?
[/QUOTE]
That’d be me.
I call him “my boy” because that’s what makes us both happy. He doesn’t identify as a “man” - that term makes him unhappy, because of his specific gender presentation. So, he gets “boy” or “boi,” depending on context. If you think that’s abuse, you should see what I do to him when he gets mouthy…
This “won’t you think of the children” both pisses me off and makes sense, heh. Yes, if she and her husband aren’t being scrupulous in their behavior, it can definitely have a damaging effect. However, I know enough long-term D/s couples with children to know that it’s perfectly possible that they are presenting enough “normality” to allow the children to socialize normally, without damage from their unorthodox sexual and behavioral proclivities.
Honesty, while I see the point of being concerned, I think that what most people are overlooking is that these are PEOPLE. They’re not defined solely by their kinks, anymore than I am. They have a specific take on their relationship, yes, and a specific way to relate to each other - but that doesn’t mean that they don’t have perfectly normal conversations most of the time.
For example: most days you would never realize that my boy and I are in a D/s relationship if you didn’t already know it. There’s a fair amount of him fetching and carrying for me, if I’m feeling lazy, but it’s “Would you kindly” and “When you have a moment,” not “Go Get It, Bitch!” An order does not have to be impolite to be an order. I have a feeling that freekalette’s situation may be similar. Even if her husband doesn’t say “please” and “thank you” all the time, I’m willing to bet he’s still polite to her most of the time, and saves his serious impoliteness for when the children are not around. That’s how I would do it, and that’s how most of the responsible D/s couples I know do it. I’d like to presume that they are responsible and intelligent until it’s proven otherwise, and it makes me a little sad (heh) that others are apparently unwilling to do the same.
[QUOTE=A Priori Tea]
There’s a fair amount of him fetching and carrying for me, if I’m feeling lazy, but it’s “Would you kindly”
[/QUOTE]
Anyone who’s played Bioshock knows that you’re not really asking when you say “Would you kindly…”
[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee]
Please. Your cites about domestic violence, and therefore do not apply to the relationship being discussed here.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll grant you that I didn’t read much of the linked thread, as I started to get sick to my stomach, but I did read a reference to her husband buying a whip to use on her.
Of course, you can always define marital rape and beatings as non-abusive, but then you lose the ability to speak reasonably about the subject.
Saying that this will not have any bad effects on their children because it is consensual is false. Women don’t always leave their husbands when they are beaten. This has bad effects on their children, who grow up assuming that abuse and disrespect of women is normal, and have a greater than average tendency to emulate it. This is what is going on here.
She chooses to stay in an abusive relationship. Regardless of her rationalizations, it is likely to damage her children, who are being systematically taught that abuse and domination are the norm.
It sickens me beyond words. And anyone who would speak out in defense of this abuse sickens me more.
[QUOTE=A Priori Tea]
For example: most days you would never realize that my boy and I are in a D/s relationship if you didn’t already know it. There’s a fair amount of him fetching and carrying for me, if I’m feeling lazy, but it’s “Would you kindly” and “When you have a moment,” not “Go Get It, Bitch!” An order does not have to be impolite to be an order. I have a feeling that freekalette’s situation may be similar. Even if her husband doesn’t say “please” and “thank you” all the time, I’m willing to bet he’s still polite to her most of the time, and saves his serious impoliteness for when the children are not around. That’s how I would do it, and that’s how most of the responsible D/s couples I know do it. I’d like to presume that they are responsible and intelligent until it’s proven otherwise, and it makes me a little sad (heh) that others are apparently unwilling to do the same.
[/QUOTE]
Well, in the other thread, she did say that she has explained to her kids that she just doesn’t want him saying please and thank you.
I dunno. I have found your posts here and in that thread pretty enlightening, A Priori Tea. I still don’t think it’s a healthy lifestyle to have around children (and, again, I know that there may be worse ones, but this is the one we’re discussing), but I don’t see you or her or anyone who chooses this as bad people just because you have chosen it.
[QUOTE=Mighty_Girl]
What makes you think they have shared details of their sexual lives with their children?
[/quote]
Who said they had to? Their sexual fetish takes place 24/7, in and out of the bedroom.
Yes, and I already explained this in the post you quoted. Sometimes it’s worth it, sometimes it’s not.
[QUOTE=Shodan]
I’ll grant you that I didn’t read much of the linked thread, as I started to get sick to my stomach, but I did read a reference to her husband buying a whip to use on her.
[/QUOTE]
No. **She **was the one who bought it for him.
[Quote=Shodan]
It sickens me beyond words. And anyone who would speak out in defense of this abuse sickens me more.
[/QUOTE]
A lot of us are just uncomfortable with the definition of any non-normative sexual behavior as abusive, wrong, and harmful. Clearly, some is–pedophilic acts to take an extreme example.
TMI: Sometimes I like to be bit and scratched during The Act. It hurts and leaves marks. Sometimes it bleeds. This is kind of abusive, is it not? My friends have sometimes seen the marks. If I had kids, they might see them as well. How bad is this? If I provide context to whomever asks (i.e. “I enjoy this”), does that make it alright? Does it make me a victim? I think we can agree this is a pretty minor kink, and it doesn’t bother me that much. So I try not to judge other people’s sexual behavior unless it’s absolutely unambiguously harmful.
So where’s your line in the sand?
[QUOTE=Shodan]
\
Saying that this will not have any bad effects on their children because it is consensual is false. Women don’t always leave their husbands when they are beaten. This has bad effects on their children, who grow up assuming that abuse and disrespect of women is normal, and have a greater than average tendency to emulate it. This is what is going on here.
[/QUOTE]
Comparing this to an abusive relationship where the woman does not leave is ridiculous. In an abusive relationship the two partners do not sit down and rationally discuss the parameters of the behavior of their relationship as this couple did.
There is also nothing that indicates this husband does not respect his wife. This is how she chooses to live her life.
My parents were Republican, Lutheran and musical. There was always rock and roll coming from my dad’s music room and church services on Sunday and discussions about the Liberal Agenda. I am a Democrat, a pagan and not the least bit musically inclined.
My parents were also fiscally conservative, donated to a number of charities, and believed a house isn’t a home without pets. I do share their opinions on all of these matters and tend to make similar decisions when it comes to money, etc.
My parents modeled a “normal” relationship for their children. They got married and stayed married. No divorce, no step-family drama, no crazy sexual deviation. I am an exhibitionist and my brother, though I have no idea what kind of life he leads in this respect, is in college (so Og only knows what the hell kind of kinky stuff he is doing!)
My point in bringing up all of this stuff is simply that children are exposed to any number of things by their parents and then choose how they want to live. They don’t always choose to go with what they were taught growing up and they often can use that model as a reason NOT to do something. This isn’t going to mess up their kids anymore than their political leanings or anything else that goes on in their home. As long as they love their kids and each other and the kids know it nothing else really matters.
Any concerns I may raise about the kids have been hashed to death already. My other issue is that she’s not a “slave” - she’s a sub.
Excuse me for being blunt on this, but a slave is one of Sudan’s forgotten slaves, or one of the women trafficed from Eastern Europe or Asia for the sex-slave trade, for example. She has a choice, a “never-list”, and can always walk away because she is protected by law even if she chooses to waive those rights temporarily. A slave can’t.