Well, then, we disagree. Now what?
Why? Citizens who actively opposed an immoral regime don’t get the weight of its immorality.
Except, not having the vote, I wasn’t a citizen, just a slave. Also, I did actively work to oppose said government. People like me are one of the reasons we no longer have said government, and now you say I take some of the blame for it? That’s just - well - stupid.
I don’t expect the averageperson to do it, or I’d have to get used to dissapointment. But that doesn’t mean the average person is morally absolved. Being wilfully ignorant may be the* reason*, but it’s no excuse.
Unilateral agression is pretty much my idea of bullying.
That’s a lot more of a mouthful. Could we shorten it to “Maintain Imperial Outposts”?
Other countries’ airstrips not good enough for you?
So, how many German airbases are there in New Mexico? Any Norwegian Army bases in Alaska?
Well, of course - gotta keep the oil flowing…
I agree. Let’s settle on “Maintain Imperial Outposts”, shall we.
No, you should nuke a country that tries to invade the US itself. Police actions like Serbia or GW1 should be handled by international groups, not at sole US discretion. I’m not saying “no US troops to leave US borders ever”, I’m saying “US troops leave US borders only under common cause”
I’m not anti-militarist, just anti-imperialist.
Once again:
“Let’s take his idea to ridiculous extremes, make fun of that, then pat ourselves on the back”
Oh, I agree with the majority on lots of issues, like:
Not being invaded by an Imperialistic regime is a good idea.
Remember, US majority is not world majority, and it was never world majority opinion that there was an Iraq-AQ link (the case we’re talking about here). So I was right with the majority. Yay, me! If majority opinion mattered a fuck about issues of fact, anyway. Tell me, is it your jury system that incalcates this “the majority is right, even when it’s clearly wrong” attitude?
or how about the current US majority opinion that George Bush is mishandling the war? You with the majority on that, duffer?
Now, now, duffer, be fair. I said “the majority”, not “all”. And I was referring specifically to issues relating to the current invasion and occupation of Iraq, where at the outset, to this foreigner’s perspective, the average US citizen seemed either ill-informed or just plain stupid. I’m willing to go with “ill-informed” for the majority.
IIRC, there’s one Luftwaffe unit in Texas.
The military is entirely made up of citizens. There is no draft you ignorant twit.
Er, calling you ignorant is an insult to ignorance. You see, by definition ignorance is a lack of knowledge of a subject. Not the lack of intelligence to be able to grasp the subject matter. You’re beyond that. You’re beyond idiocy. Even those classified as idiots (yes, it’s measurable in clinical terms, though not PC) have the saving grace of not knowing any better. They’re idiots. Or morons, or retarded, or mentally-challenged. All of those are levels that can be used in describing mental capacity. You’re beyond that. You’re hateful and spiteful. Not to mention a world-class asshole.
We get that you hate Americans. We get it, mmm-kay? How’s your neighborhood doing? You guys holding down the fort til us heathens are finally eradicated? Are you prepared to take the lead?
I accept the world is portrayed as hating the US. We’re seen as the bully. Funny how so many countries are still dependant on us for their own well-being. That’s not hubris, it’s fact. Ever wonder why the US economy makes world news when the prime interest rate is adjusted even 1/8%?
The US is still the lone Superpower since the USSR fell. Everyone wants to snipe the guy at the top. It’s nothing new. (History extends further back than 200 years.) Your petty shit is expected from the little 'uns. You’re like children in a playground.
You know the guy you see as a bully is bigger and stronger than you. You resent him for it. At the same time you get the comfort that all your peers are against him. On top of that, you know that if any of the other kids try to start trouble, that bully will be right there to quash it. You know that you’re not strong enough to fend off all attacks, so you see the bully as a force that can let you play around without too much concern. Of course, none of this prevents you from passing notes in study hall calling the bully a big doody-head. Actually now that I think of it, such a note would be Pulitzer material compared to your shit.
That anology is incredibly simplified, and I apolgize to all Dopers for making it so basic in scope. I just don’t know how to dumb it down any more to get you to understand it. I don’t think anyone can.
I will thank you for one thing, though. (Note to everyone else, sarcasm spewing forth. Don’t worry, he won’t get it.) Now I can cite you when when I call the Iraq veteran’s protesting the war a bunch of baby-killing, teacher-raping imperialistic douchebags. Yeah, fuck 'em. Kill 'em all.
BTW, how’s that whole Apartheid recovery coming out? We tried it over a century ago and still hold the record of the most racist society in Western Society. Just wondering how a country with people like you have managed so well.
There’s a Luftwaffe airbase in Texas, or a Luftwaffe unit currently stationed as guests at a US airbase? There is a difference…
Out of idle curiosity, are you familiar at all with the English language?
The comment was made that sometimes the majority are right, and in any argument, that usually can be taken to mean that this time they were right - about the Iraq / Al Queda link. To make such a comment, and then backtrack when it is shown to be false, by hinting that yeah well sometimes the majority isn’t right, is not honest. So then, if they were wrong, and if they were wrong because of what someone else “guided” them to that erroneous wrongness, then we have a PROBLEM. It’s telling, that as more people became aware of this problem, the reasons for war started to change. So now, why is the war happening? That’s the million dollar question.
The cited article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16_2.html
is just one more piece of ammo for those who all along had said there was no link. Just one more tick mark on the list, which is still growing. All along, Bush and Cheney had been saying there was a link, either through outright statements, or deniable “hints”. Supposedly the majority believed them. Supposedly. Either the majority were right or they weren’t. The number of people believing, doesn’t mean shit if they were wrong. To say they are sometimes right, infers that they were right this time. They were not.
Backpeddling works for you. Unfortunately, it’s still bullshit. I’m still looking for the “ill-informed” qualifier in the first post. Maybe I’m ignorant in the nuance used in your fabulous society. Maybe I’m gullible in taking your bait.
Maybe I’m just plain fucking stupid in taking anything you say more seriously than than a fart from one of my Pug’s.
I’ll have to ponder this one. :rolleyes:
I don’t see the point of this observation, but I’m well aware you have an all-volunteer military. Do you think this makes their moral situation better?
But anyway, since the quote about citizens opposing the regime was in relation to Apartheid, I should point out that we did have the draft - in fact, all male citizens were supposed to serve. Although I still don’t see the point.
Neighbourhood’s pretty shitty. So what else is new? At least we’re not currently occupied by an Evil Empire.
And I don’t hate Americans, but I’m sure you feel better telling yourself that.
Cite me on what? I’ve already said those in opposition to an evil act can’t be tainted with the moral negativity of that act.
Well, we, at least, have had a couple of Black presidents, :wally . You have no fucking clue, do you? “People like you”? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? I’m not White, shitstain. I’m part of the the reason Apartheid ended.
It’s my home language, but I suppose if you’re running out of substantive arguments we can go there. Is this going to be “poor Third Worldie can’t string together a sentence” racist bullshit? Or the monty-patented “That word you used doesn’t mean the same thing in monty-world. Let’s change the argument to that rather than the issues” hijack? Just so I know where you’re coming from.
Dipshit. You keep saying it’s all Bush/Cheney. Cute when arguing from emotion, but your beloved party leaders also sold it to their constituents as the same. Quit the "We was lied to " shit and face up to the fact every Senator had access to the same raw intel. If the White House spun it, your heroes should have shown us otherwise. Instead, they got the condensed version so they could reserve their time to do God only knows what else they do. They never took the time to study what they were voting on. They didn’t care about lives then, they wanted to look good. They never (the one’s truly against the war) ever gave a shit to find out the truth staring at them in the face if they would have just taken the time. Even if they did, though, the intel was pretty goddamn indicative of a link at it’s face value.
Of the votes cast in the Senate supporting the war, 29 of the 77 Yeas were cast by Dems. Including St. Reid.
Back-pedalling? I’d say “ill-informed” is a nice synthesis of “gullible/ignorant”, but if you need everything to be broken up into simpler terms for you, I’ll understand.
Oh, and by the way, I’ve never defended or praised my society above others, unlike you. So all the digs at it just make you look sad to me.
I have a pug too - my second one, and their farts are fearsome. I take them seriously - watery burning eyes, gasping, the whole routine. Deadly. :eek:
Careful Monty. That’s the second time he mentioned race. I know it’ll be difficult for us all to cease mentioning race in this thread but we have to do what we can. Oh wait. Dribble is the only one to mention it? Never mind. Carry on.
High-5 I just knew there could be some common ground between us. Even if you are always wrong. 
“Dribble”? Ha Ha, that Right Wingnut wit, it’s a gas. That’s almost as good as “Der Shit”. Comedy gold, I tells ya. Pity monty’s already been there, so lose some points for lack of originality.
Oh, and race?
Sure, it’s just me.
Asshole. Maybe I’ve decided that NONE of them are worth a fuck at this point. Still I know who was selling the horse shit, no matter which suckers bought it. So you quit the shit. I know who was selling horse shit and I know who bought the horse shit. Besides, I have no fucking heroes anymore. Fuck them all. Fuck Reid too. If you wanna talk about the truth staring them in the face, well shit. double fuck them for that, but triple fuck the bastards selling the lie. As far as “my beloved party leaders”, fuck them too. I’ve switched parties before and can always do it again. Problem is, I can’t stand any of them anymore. But the fact remains, as you say,** the White House spun it**. So step off.
Fuck Bush, fuck Cheney, fuck Wolfowitz, fuck Ashcroft, fuck Libby, fuck Lieberman, fuck all the Dems who bought in, fuck every last stinking one of them. If they didn’t take the time to read whatever abbreviated shit was put in front of them, fuck them. If the full report was available with all the caveats and disclaimers, and they didn’t read it, fuck them. If they only got the “sanitized version”, at this point fuck them anyway. I really DOUBT they had access to the raw intel, that was limited. There was a presidential memo thingy that limited who could see the whole raw intel, and apparently those in the know didn’t share. But mostly, fuck the White House for starting the shit. No way do they get off the hook.
While we are at it, dipshit, here is the story behind that “vote to go to war”.
The Joint Resolution was sold by the Bush Administration in Fall of '02 as a way to show Saddam that we were serious about getting weapons inspectors back in Iraq. It was a vote for peace:
"If you want to keep the peace, you’ve got to have the authorization to use force. But it’s – this will be – this is a chance for Congress to indicate support. It’s a chance for Congress to say, we support the administration’s ability to keep the peace. That’s what this is all about." - George Bush, Remarks by the President in Photo Opportunity with Secretary of State Colin Powell, The Oval Office, Washington, DC, September 19, 2002
The need for a strongly worded Joint Resolution was over and over again emphasized. If Congress failed to pass the resolution, the signal it would send to Saddam Hussein was that we were disorganized, and not in agreement on our resolve to see Weapons Inspectors back in Iraq. We were told that Saddam only respects force, and so we needed to show him that we were willing to use force. And that that was the only way to keep the peace.
For you learning impaired types, it was not presented as a go-ahead to immediately attack, it was sold as a way to pressure Saddam, so inspectors could look for weapons that didn’t even exist anymore. We all know what happened then. So, fuck the Repubs AND the Dems for believing that lying sneaking treacherous bastard. And fuck you too.