This is more of a question I guess, but how about Roberto Alomar. He will have 3000 hits (my career estimate is 3200-3300), his lifetime average is around .300, and he has 10 gold gloves.
Fernando Valenzuela had a good, long, respectable career. Folks came to see him from miles around - not only in LA, but in St Louis, Chicago, New York. He was a crowdpleaser - and won his share of games for a team that was good for one, maybe two runs a game. (Koufax didn’t mind that - he gave up 0 or 1 runs per game).
Dwight Gooden squandered his enormous talent. 95+ MPH Fastballs are always impressive - yet his Curve Ball was a 12-6 O’clock masterpiece. Impressive on TV, awesome to see at the park.
Jeff O, child of the 80’s - see Kerry Wood. Best pitcher in the game.
<argh>me stupid again. “Jeff O” should have been Justin_Bailey"</argh>
Corbomite -
Doc Gooden, Career
W-L: 194-112 (.634)
ERA: 3.51
SO/9: 7.37
BB/9: 3.07
All-Star: 4 appearances (1984-1986, 1988)
Cy Young: 1 win (1985), 1 runner-up (1984)
ROY: 1 win (1984)
Fernando Valenzuela, Career
W-L: 173-153 (.531)
ERA: 3.54
SO/9: 6.37
BB/9: 3.54
All-Star: 6 appearances (1981-1986)
Cy Young: 1 win (1981), 1 runner-up (1986)
ROY: 1 win (1981)
Comparing their Cy Young seasons:
Gooden: 24-4 (!), 1.53, 268K and 69BB in 276.7IP
Valenzuela: 13-7, 2.48, 180K and 61BB in 192.3IP
I don’t get why you would put Fernando in there and not Gooden.
Valenzuela is eligible for the BBWAA 2004 Hall Of Fame Vote and Doc Gooden will not be for another two (?) years.
I was replying to Jeff Olsen about fans coming out to the park to see certain pitchers.
As to comparing the pitchers in the same light: I appreciate Fernando Valenzuela for his contributions to baseball. I feel Doc Gooden squandered his talent and let his fans down. He’s not getting into the HOF. Besides, NYR407 has taken my vote and will cast it for whoever he feels is best.
Kudos.
Did I honestly see John Smoltz’s name in this thread?
Sorry, folks, but Smoltz isn’t going unless he picks up about 350 more saves. His numbers as a starter weren’t good enough to justify it, and he’s had two good seasons as a closer. Not HOF material yet, if ever.
I agree wholeheartedly, but why single me out? Because Wood is another child of the 80s?
It’s weird when you start becoming older than the athletes you watch on TV and (if you’re lucky) in the stadiums.
But still no thoughts on my suggestion of the great Jose?
Canseco’s got the numbers…no doubt about that.
But the bad press (from the steroids to Marlena to the silly 1-900-Numbeer to everything else) is going to keep him from being voted in by the writers.
Maybe the new Veteran’s Committee. Maybe. But that’ll be in 20 years or so.
Joe Mauer?
OK, maybe I’m just running a little bit ahead.
Corbomite I’m putting you down as a vote for Joel Youngblood, Doug Flynn, Ken Phelps and of course Doc Gooden. 
Jose Canseco will never make the HOF. Unless of course the NYC media get on the bandwagon and start petitioning for the ex-Yankee. JUST KIDDING, astorian!!!
Seriously I don’t see JC making it. He will however over take Dave Kingman as the answer to the trivia question: Who has hit the most home runs that is not in the HOF (and is eligible of course). Current answer is Kingman (442 HRs?). Come 2006 change the answer to Canseco (464?).
Just for the record, I am pulling for Lee Smith to get in this year so they will pretty much have given precedence and Franco will one day be there. Call me sentimental but after all, he’s a native NYer, raised a Mets fan, played most of his career for them and graduated from SJU. Just like me except he got to play for the Mets. Oh and were both lefties too! If only I could pitch.
I find it strange Alomar is getting such little respect; I think he’s a certain lock. I am absolutely, 100% positive he will end up in the Hall of Fame. I’d bet big money on it. He will certainly be elected before Craig Biggio is.
Locks? Alomar, Clemens, Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro, Bonds, Palmiero, Griffey, Sosa, Glavine, Rickey, Pudge, Piazza, Bagwell. All certain to go in, IMHO.
Obviously I think guys like A-Rod and Jeter are going, but I can’t say it’s certain until they’ve played long enough to be eligible. And guys like Manny and Carlos Delgado could go if they keep hitting homers and driving in runs, but if they got hurt tomorrow, they would not go in.
Yes. This describes a lot of players. More than I want in the HOF. It’s a pretty low standard.
Robb Nenn and Troy Percival? Eck will be the only reliever in the hall for a long time. Mariano Rivera is far from a shoo-in. Heck, I wouldn’t even discuss his chances for another several years given the history of superstar closers who fall apart without warning.
My shoo-ins:
Barry Bonds–Baseball’s biggest jerk is also its best player.
Rafael Palmeiro–The DH situation won’t hurt him. After Raffy reached 500 homers this season, damn near every baseball writer was honoring him with an appreciation article. They’re the
ones who vote, and they appreciate his accomplishments.
Randy Johnson–The most dominating lefty of his era.
Greg Maddux–He’s been a sure thing for years now.
Tom Glavine–That second Cy Young sealed it for him.
Sammy Sosa–Steroid accusations and corked bats aren’t enough to keep this guy out.
Alex Rodriguez–I just can’t picture this guy declining any time soon.
Pudge Rodriguez–Good field/no hit catcher with an attitude problem works hard to become a .300 hitting power hitter and leader. Taking the Marlins to a world championship last year was the finishing touch.
Pedro Martinez–Undeniably the best pitcher of the past several years.
Chipper Jones–Gets overshadowed by the fact that the Braves keep losing in the playoffs, but he consistently hits 30-40 homers while batting over .300 and he already has an MVP award.
On the bubble:
Frank Thomas–Needs at least 3 or 4 more 35 homer 90-100 RBI seasons or the voters will think he “turned Mattingly”.
Bernie Williams–Should really be a shoo-in with his gold gloves, .300+ average and HR & RBI numbers, but I don’t know how voters feel about him.
Juan Gonzalez–Two MVP awards should make him a shoo-in, but the injury-prone label can hurt. If he can put together a few more of those 130+ RBI seasons, he’s definitely in. Otherwise, he may linger on the ballot for a few years before getting enough votes, or maybe have to wait for the veterans committee.
Roberto Alomar–Don’t know why people have soured on him. He played poorly for the Mets, but I expect next season he’ll return to his .300 avg, 15-20 homer, 80+ RBI form.
Mike Mussina–Probably won’t get in because he has no Cy Youngs and has never won twenty games, but he has 199 wins, a decent ERA and a good winning percantage, so if he can somehow put together a pair of 20 win seasons, I think he’s in.
For the record, any Colorado hitter will need 600 homers and/or a .350 lifetime average to get in. Whether it’s fair or not, there’s a huge bias against the Rockies, which is a shame because Walker was already a great hitter with Montreal and Helton would hit anywhere.
simple, If you look here you’ll see that charactor factors into the selction process
As much as I love Doc (and this is coming from a Kid who wanted to be Doc and the Straw) the drug addiction just can’t be overlooked. Doc had the best arm in the history of baseball, if he’d stayed sober there is no question he’d be in the hall. The same can be said for Strawberry. These guys had more god given tallet then anybody. BUt like Pete Rose, their off field activites have tainted their memories.
Understand this. I’m a life long met fan. I idolized these two as a child. I never want to see them in the Hall, ever.
Then I hope you join my baseball pool next year. He’s had two bad years in a row, and played worse when he went to the White Sox. That said, I think he is almost surely in the HOF. Is there any chance that he is really like 40 years old, rather than the official 35?
Helton has a higher career slugging percentage than Bonds. I did not know that.
You are correct Neurotik - Nomar does have more range and is statistically superior to Jeter on a hits per game average. Chalk it up to a knee jerk reaction to Jeter backlash. IMO there’s no point in comparing him to ARod, who is on his way to a status that only Bonds, among current players, will attain.
Valezuela was good only for the first 11 years or so of his career (1980-90). After that, he shuffled around from the Angels to the Orioles to the Phillies to the Padres to the Cardinals over a seven-year period (and didn’t play in 1992 at all). During those years, he was 32-37 total. Definitely not very good, certainly not All-Star-caliber, and absolutely not HoF material.
Neither is Fernando unless it’s by the Veterans’ Committee. Squandered talent or no, Gooden put up better numbers.
As for fame, Fernandomania only lasted a few seasons. Gooden had his “K Corner” for his entire career with the Mets. And not just in Shea, Mets fans brought the the “K” signs with them on the road. Arguing fame is pointless and has little bearing on HoF ballots with the possible exception of the Veterans’ Committee. Might explain how Mazeroski got in.
Actually, Fernando is good for the first seven years only, including a losing season and a “year” of 2&0. He had one winning season the rest of his career, and he was over the league average ERA far more often than not in those years. The ten most similar pitchers to him contain no HOF members.
Thomas, Canseco, and Belle are all reasons why we shouldn’t just go “by the numbers.”
- They all played horrible defense.
- Their offensive numbers are partially–not wholly–inflated by their times and are not quite as impressive if looked at in context.
- Cansceo admits to roid use, Belle’s team-mates have said that he was 100% juiced. I don’t know about Thomas.
- Between them, their teams have won one World Series. This should count at least a little, especially because it links to
- They are not leaders. They are not even followers. They were/are famous for being clubhouse assholes, quitters, dividers, whiners, etc.
I wouldn’t ever put any of them in.
I would also put Piazza in, but as a hitter only. He should NEVER have played catcher for even an inning.
ASSUMING THEIR CAREERS ARE OVER
WHO’S IN:
Pedro, Randy Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine
Bagwell, Biggio, Larkin, Bonds, Sosa, Henderson, Pudge,
Walker(?)